Hits creatures as +x weapon - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: /* Description */ copy this here

2025-02-17T08:11:07Z

‎Description: copy this here

Umbire the Phantom: /* Strategy */ word choice

2024-12-19T07:17:52Z

‎Strategy: word choice

Umbire the Phantom: /* Description */ tense

2023-12-06T02:18:43Z

‎Description: tense

Umbire the Phantom: pothole

2023-09-24T09:00:59Z

pothole

Ion frigate: word choice - thanks for shortening and making much more readable my rather wordy prose

2023-07-31T07:57:11Z

word choice - thanks for shortening and making much more readable my rather wordy prose

Umbire the Phantom: /* Monsters and weapons /

2023-07-30T16:29:55Z

‎Monsters and weapons: *

Umbire the Phantom: Heck, player dopplegangers'll need to know how artifacts interact with it also

2023-07-30T16:13:16Z

Heck, player dopplegangers'll need to know how artifacts interact with it also

Umbire the Phantom: /* Polyself */ rephrase here

2023-07-30T16:00:04Z

‎Polyself: rephrase here

Umbire the Phantom: A lot of this can be stated more elegantly and without as much repetition. Also, if artifacts weapons for monster work differently than for players, then shouldn't we include that latter information?

2023-07-30T15:59:29Z

A lot of this can be stated more elegantly and without as much repetition. Also, if artifacts weapons for monster work differently than for players, then shouldn't we include that latter information?

Ion frigate: point to other strategy section, add bit about conflict

2023-07-30T06:10:26Z

point to other strategy section, add bit about conflict

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:11, 17 February 2025
Line 7:		Line 7:

	When calculating damage in combat, if the attacker has this property, the property's level is checked against the level a target's enchantment resistance - this is done even if they are using an enchanted weapon, with some exceptions described in detail below. regardless of if they are wielding a weapon.		When calculating damage in combat, if the attacker has this property, the property's level is checked against the level a target's enchantment resistance - this is done even if they are using an enchanted weapon, with some exceptions described in detail below. regardless of if they are wielding a weapon.
		+
		+	===Bare-handed combat===
		+	Bare-handed attacks for the hero count as a +0 weapon irrespective of skill level or any worn [[gloves]], with two exceptions:
		+
		+	* You are [[polymorph]]ed into a monster with the ''hits creatures as a +x weapon'' property as mentioned above - you can hit if ''x'' is high enough.
		+	* You are a [[Monk]]: Monks fighting bare-handed hit creatures as a +[[XL]]/4 weapon, i.e. a level 4-7 Monk hits as +1, level 8-11 Monks hit as +2, level 12-15 Monks hit as +3, and level 16+ Monks hit as +4.

	===Polyself===		===Polyself===

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 ==Strategy==
-The ability to hit creatures as a +x weapon is of particular relevance to pet-keepers, especially [[pacifist]]s who rely on their pets being able to reliably damage and kill monsters: see [[Need +x to hit#Strategy|this strategy section]] for advice on obtaining pets with this property. It is also relevant to [[Doppelganger (starting race)|doppelganger]] characters, who often utilize polyself as a primary strategy and generally require specific knowledge of monster forms to deal with most situations they encounter.
+The ability to hit creatures as a +x weapon is of particular relevance to pet-keepers, especially [[pacifist]]s who rely on their pets being able to reliably damage and kill monsters: see [[Need +x to hit#Strategy|this strategy section]] for advice on obtaining pets with this property. It is also relevant to [[Doppelganger (starting race)|doppelganger]] characters, who can utilize polyself and specific knowledge of monster forms to deal with certain situations that they encounter.
 Monsters gain nothing from higher-enchanted weapons if they have a "hits as +x" property, making equipping pets for the purpose of taking on hostile monsters with higher "needs +x to hit" properties somewhat counter-productive. Remember that for monsters, artifacts cap out at +2 weapons for purposes of hitting through enchantment resistance and are also overridden by "hits as +x" properties making them worse than ordinary weapons in some cases. To sum up with a few examples:

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 ==Description==
-The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with [[enchantment resistance]]: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hit as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
+The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with [[enchantment resistance]]: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hits as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
 When calculating damage in combat, if the attacker has this property, the property's level is checked against the level a target's enchantment resistance - this is done even if they are using an enchanted weapon, with some exceptions described in detail below. regardless of if they are wielding a weapon.

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 ==Description==
-The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with enchantment resistance: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hit as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
+The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with [[enchantment resistance]]: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hit as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
 When calculating damage in combat, if the attacker has this property, the property's level is checked against the level a target's enchantment resistance - this is done even if they are using an enchanted weapon, with some exceptions described in detail below. regardless of if they are wielding a weapon.

@@ Line 17: / Line 17: @@
 The ability to hit creatures as a +x weapon is of particular relevance to pet-keepers, especially [[pacifist]]s who rely on their pets being able to reliably damage and kill monsters: see [[Need +x to hit#Strategy|this strategy section]] for advice on obtaining pets with this property. It is also relevant to [[Doppelganger (starting race)|doppelganger]] characters, who often utilize polyself as a primary strategy and generally require specific knowledge of monster forms to deal with most situations they encounter.
-Monsters gain nothing from higher-enchanted weapons if they have a "hits as +x" property, making equipping pets for the purpose of taking on hostile monsters with higher "needs +x to hit" properties somewhat counter-intuitive. Remember that for monsters, artifacts cap out at +2 weapons for purposes of hitting through enchantment resistance and are also overridden by "hits as +x" properties making them worse than ordinary weapons in some cases. To sum up with a few examples:
+Monsters gain nothing from higher-enchanted weapons if they have a "hits as +x" property, making equipping pets for the purpose of taking on hostile monsters with higher "needs +x to hit" properties somewhat counter-productive. Remember that for monsters, artifacts cap out at +2 weapons for purposes of hitting through enchantment resistance and are also overridden by "hits as +x" properties making them worse than ordinary weapons in some cases. To sum up with a few examples:
 * A pet [[Elvenking]], which possesses neither property, can hit any monster with a +4 dagger. That same Elvenking with the +7 [[Sunsword]] would not be able to hit a [[ki-rin]], which has "needs +3 to hit" - Sunsword hits as +2 regardless of its actual enchantment.

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 ===Monsters and weapons===
-Monsters wielding enchanted weapons that attack other monsters with the "needs +x weapon to hit" property are treated somewhat similarly - a monster without a  "hits as +x" property has their weapon's enchantment checked against enchantment resistance: any enchantment of +0 or below is counted as 0, a +0 or lower artifact weapon hits as a +1 weapon, and a +1 or higher artifact weapon hits as a +2 weapon. A monster with the "hits creatures as a +x weapon" property overrides the enchantment of their weapon, though artifact bonuses are not applied;{{reffunc|mhitm.c|mdamagem|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} it is unclear if this behavior is a bug.
+Monsters wielding enchanted weapons that attack other monsters with the "needs +x weapon to hit" property are treated somewhat similarly - a monster without a  "hits as +x" property has their weapon's enchantment checked against enchantment resistance: any enchantment of +0 or below is counted as 0, a +0 or lower artifact weapon hits as a +1 weapon, and a +1 or higher artifact weapon hits as a +2 weapon. A monster with the "hits creatures as a +x weapon" property overrides the enchantment of their weapon, and artifact bonuses are not applied;{{reffunc|mhitm.c|mdamagem|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} it is unclear if this behavior is a bug.
 ==Strategy==

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 ===Polyself===
-If you are polymorphed into a monster with this property, the property's level will override the enchantment of your actual weapon; wielded [[artifact]]s (not just artifact weapons) gain a +2 bonus to "effective" enchantment for this purpose, even while you are polymorphed into a monster with this property.{{refsrc|uhitm.c|886|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} [[Magicbane]] is always counted as a +4 weapon for this purpose, effectively ignoring all forms of enchantment resistance when you attack with it.{{refsrc|uhitm.c|885|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} A player polymorphed into an [[orc-captain]] (which hits as +1) cannot hit an Aleax (which needs +2 to hit) with any mundane weapon, though they can do so with a wielded artifact.
+If you are polymorphed into a monster with this property, the property's level will override the enchantment of your actual weapon; wielded [[artifact]]s (not just artifact weapons) gain a +2 bonus to "effective" enchantment for purposes of checking against your target's enchantment resistance, even while you are polymorphed into a monster with this property.{{refsrc|uhitm.c|886|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} [[Magicbane]] is always counted as a +4 weapon for this purpose, effectively ignoring all forms of enchantment resistance when you attack with it.{{refsrc|uhitm.c|885|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} A player polymorphed into an [[orc-captain]] (which hits as +1) cannot hit an Aleax (which needs +2 to hit) with any mundane weapon, though they can do so with a wielded artifact.
 ===Monsters and weapons===

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-In [[SLASH'EM]] and [[SlashTHEM]], [[monster]]s can have the '''"hits creatures as a +x weapon"''' property, where x is an integer from 1 to 4 - monsters with the property will hit other monsters as weapon of the described enchantment. This is derived from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'' alongside the "[[Need +x weapon to hit]]" property.
+In [[SLASH'EM]] and [[SlashTHEM]], both new and returning [[monster]]s can have the '''"hits creatures as a +x weapon"''' property, where x is an integer from 1 to 4 - monsters with the property will hit other monsters as a weapon of the described enchantment. This is derived from ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'' alongside the "[[Need +x weapon to hit]]" property.
-Note that these two properties are given to both new monsters and monsters from vanilla. It is possible to gain the ''[[Monsters with hits creatures as a +x weapon (SLASH'EM)|"hits monsters as a +x weapon"]]'' property through [[polymorph]], but not the ''"needs +x weapon to hit"'' property.
+[[You]] can gain this property by polymorphing into an appropriate monster, though this does not confer the equivalent enchantment resistance.
 ==Description==
-The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon.
+The "hits creatures as +x weapon" property treats the monster's attacks as coming from a weapon of a certain enchantment, with the exact level of enchantment governed using a set of flags describing that enchantment (e.g., <tt>MR_HITASONE</tt>, <tt>MR_HITASTWO</tt> and so on). A monster with a <tt>MR_HITASFOUR</tt> flag, for instance, will hit other monsters as a +4 weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with enchantment resistance: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hit as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
-In combat, this property is checked against a target's enchantment resistance if the attacker is not wielding a weapon. It is also intrinsic to monsters with enchantment resistance: a monster that is not given a specific "hits as" flag 'implicitly' hit as the same enchantment of weapon that they resist{{refsrc|mhitm.c|1002|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} - e.g., the [[Aleax]] has the <tt>MR_PLUSTWO</tt> flag but no <tt>MR_HITASFOO</tt>, so Aleaxes require a +2 weapon or better to hit and hit as +2 weapons themselves.
+When calculating damage in combat, if the attacker has this property, its level is checked against the level a target's enchantment resistance - this is done even if they are using an enchanted weapon, with some exceptions described in detail below. regardless of if they are wielding a weapon.
-[[You]] can gain this property by [[polymorph]]ing into an appropriate monster, though this does not confer the equivalent enchantment resistance.  Note that your level of this property will ''supersede'' the enchantment of any wielded weapon.  Thus, a player polymorphed into an [[orc-captain]] (hits as +1) cannot hit an Aleax (needs +2 to hit) with ''any'' mundane weapon.  The +2 bonus for wielding an artifact weapon still applies, though.
+===Polyself===
-===Weapons===
+===Monsters and weapons===
-Monsters can gain the ability to hit other monsters with the ''"needs +x weapon to hit"'' property by having an appropriate weapon.  However, this works somewhat differently than for players:
+Monsters wielding enchanted weapons that attack other monsters with the "needs +x weapon to hit" property are treated somewhat similarly - a monster without a  "hits as +x" property has their weapon's enchantment checked against enchantment resistance: any enchantment of +0 or below is counted as 0, a +0 or lower artifact weapon hits as a +1 weapon, and a +1 or higher artifact weapon hits as a +2 weapon. A monster with the "hits creatures as a +x weapon" property overrides the enchantment of their weapon, though artifact bonuses are not applied;{{reffunc|mhitm.c|mdamagem|version=SLASH'EM 0.0.7E7F2}} it is unclear if this behavior is a bug.
-Note that this means artifacts are actually ''worse'' than ordinary weapons for the purposes of helping pets get through enchantment resistance: they can never help a monster hit better than a +2 weapon.  Additionally, there is no point to giving a monster that possesses a non-zero ''"hits as +x"'' property an enchanted weapon to help it hit more foes, as its natural property will override that of the weapon.
+==Strategy==
+The ability to hit creatures as a +x weapon is of particular relevance to pet-keepers, especially [[pacifist]]s who rely on their pets being able to reliably damage and kill monsters: see [[Need +x to hit#Strategy|this strategy section]] for advice on obtaining pets with this property.
-This fairly counterintuitive behavior may be a bug.
+Monsters gain nothing from higher-enchanted weapons if they have a "hits as +x" property, making equipping pets for the purpose of taking on hostile monsters with higher "needs +x to hit" properties somewhat counter-intuitive. Remember that for monsters, artifacts cap out at +2 weapons for purposes of hitting through enchantment resistance and are also overridden by "hits as +x" properties making them worse than ordinary weapons in some cases. To sum up with a few examples:
-==Strategy==
+* A pet [[Elvenking]], which possesses neither property, can hit any monster with a +4 dagger. That same Elvenking with the +7 [[Sunsword]] would not be able to hit a [[ki-rin]], which has "needs +3 to hit" - Sunsword hits as +2 regardless of its actual enchantment.
-The ability to hit creatures as a +x weapon is of particular relevance to pet-keepers, especially [[pacifist]]s who rely on their pets being able to reliably damage and kill monsters: see [[Need +x to hit#Strategy|this strategy section]] for advice on obtaining pets with this property.
+* An [[orc-captain]], which explicitly possesses "hit as +1", would not even be able to hit a [[lich]] even while wielding an artifact such as the +7 [[Doomblade]] - liches possess the "needs +2 to hit" property, and the orc-captain's "hits as +1" property overrides both the artifact's "effective" enchantment and its actual enchantment.
-This property also serves to make [[conflict]] somewhat less useful later on.  In conflict, among other things, one wants to see powerful melee brutes injure or kill powerful spellcasters such as [[arch-lich]]es.  Unfortunately, many such combinations no longer work: the nastiest spellcasters have +3 or +4 enchantment resistance, and very few low MR melee-only monsters (e.g. [[minotaur]]s, [[mastodon]]s) can get past it.  Conflict still serves well as a distraction, but it tends not to kill as many monsters as in vanilla.
+Both properties also serve to make [[conflict]] somewhat less useful in the late game, since especially nasty spellcasters such as [[arch-lich]]es cannot be reliably hit by most of the other monsters surrounding them, including low-[[Magic resistance (monster)|MR score]] nasties that they can summon such as [[minotaur]]s and [[mastodon]]s. Conflict still serves well as a distraction, but will not kill as many monsters as it would otherwise, and may require you to step in and kill some of the tougher hostiles yourself.
 ==See also==