Talk:Alignment - Revision history

Actual-nh: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */ Wielding required to get MR is a disadvantage

2021-07-06T03:01:46Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results: Wielding required to get MR is a disadvantage

Darth l33t: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */

2021-07-06T02:45:06Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results

Actual-nh: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */ Add to Lawful disadvantages?

2021-07-05T22:57:47Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results: Add to Lawful disadvantages?

Luxidream at 22:12, 5 July 2021

2021-07-05T22:12:48Z

Actual-nh: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */ Are worn stealable?

2021-07-05T20:40:52Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results: Are worn stealable?

Umbire the Phantom: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */

2021-07-05T20:03:34Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results

Actual-nh: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */ Worn?

2021-07-05T19:57:01Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results: Worn?

Luxidream at 06:04, 5 July 2021

2021-07-05T06:04:25Z

Actual-nh: Divided up talk page

2021-07-02T20:41:07Z

Divided up talk page

Actual-nh: /* Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results */ new section

2021-07-02T20:39:28Z

‎Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:01, 6 July 2021
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	:::::If nymphs and monkeys can steal worn items, covetous monsters should be able to as well. With regards to lawful artifacts granting magic resistance, I don't think it's an advantage (because it's not theft-proof) or a disadvantage (you can bag the artifact to prevent the Wizard from stealing it and getting resistance). So I'd say don't mention it at all. --[[User:Darth l33t\|Darth l33t]] ([[User talk:Darth l33t\|talk]]) 02:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)		:::::If nymphs and monkeys can steal worn items, covetous monsters should be able to as well. With regards to lawful artifacts granting magic resistance, I don't think it's an advantage (because it's not theft-proof) or a disadvantage (you can bag the artifact to prevent the Wizard from stealing it and getting resistance). So I'd say don't mention it at all. --[[User:Darth l33t\|Darth l33t]] ([[User talk:Darth l33t\|talk]]) 02:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::::::Nymphs being able to steal worn items makes sense, given a seduction-related attack; not so sure about monkeys, although admittedly the Mitre is a hat. That the Sceptre of Might has to be wielded for MR is also a problem if someone would otherwise be using Excalibur. It's possible this shouldn't be noted under Alignment but under the Wish strategy section. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 03:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:45, 6 July 2021
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	::::Thank you (I'd call that a bug, actually, particularly for the "worn" part!); I'm considering changing the Lawful disadvantages, but am not sure how to word it. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 22:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		::::Thank you (I'd call that a bug, actually, particularly for the "worn" part!); I'm considering changing the Lawful disadvantages, but am not sure how to word it. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 22:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	:::::If nymphs and monkeys can steal worn items, covetous monsters should be able to as well. With regards to lawful artifacts granting magic resistance, I don't think it's an advantage (because it's not theft-proof) or a disadvantage (you can bag the artifact to prevent the Wizard from stealing it and getting resistance). So I'd say don't mention it at all. --[[User:Darth l33t\|Darth l33t]] ([[User talk:Darth l33t\|talk]]) 02:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:57, 5 July 2021
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	:::Worn and wielded quest artifacts can still be stolen. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 22:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		:::Worn and wielded quest artifacts can still be stolen. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 22:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::::Thank you (I'd call that a bug, actually, particularly for the "worn" part!); I'm considering changing the Lawful disadvantages, but am not sure how to word it. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 22:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:12, 5 July 2021
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	:::The [[Mitre of Holiness]] appears mainly notable for an invocation energy boost. (Priests get half physical damage from undead and demons; N/A for those wishing for it.) This is assuming that worn quest artifacts aren't stealable; I don't know whether they are or not. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		:::The [[Mitre of Holiness]] appears mainly notable for an invocation energy boost. (Priests get half physical damage from undead and demons; N/A for those wishing for it.) This is assuming that worn quest artifacts aren't stealable; I don't know whether they are or not. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	:::Worn and wielded quest artifacts can still be stolen. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 22:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:40, 5 July 2021
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	::...so basically the Mitre of Holiness? I'd think so, yeah, but the Mitre isn't much to write home about among QAs, so I've personally not heard much mention of it. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 20:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		::...so basically the Mitre of Holiness? I'd think so, yeah, but the Mitre isn't much to write home about among QAs, so I've personally not heard much mention of it. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 20:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	:::The [[Mitre of Holiness]] appears mainly notable for an invocation energy boost. (Priests get half physical damage from undead and demons; N/A for those wishing for it.) This is assuming that worn quest artifacts aren't stealable; I don't know whether they are or not. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:03, 5 July 2021
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	::Are ''worn'' quest artifacts stealable (by the Wizard)? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		::Are ''worn'' quest artifacts stealable (by the Wizard)? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::...so basically the Mitre of Holiness? I'd think so, yeah, but the Mitre isn't much to write home about among QAs, so I've personally not heard much mention of it. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 20:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:57, 5 July 2021
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	:Lawful characters have no good artifact wishes, since any source of carried MR can be stolen, making it worse than GDSM or a cloak of magic resistance. The Sceptre of Might, which used to be a strong lawful wish, goes unused now for this reason and because it must be wielded for MR. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 06:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		:Lawful characters have no good artifact wishes, since any source of carried MR can be stolen, making it worse than GDSM or a cloak of magic resistance. The Sceptre of Might, which used to be a strong lawful wish, goes unused now for this reason and because it must be wielded for MR. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 06:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::Are ''worn'' quest artifacts stealable (by the Wizard)? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:04, 5 July 2021
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	I have done some analysis on 3.6+ Junethack ascensions with dumplogs available (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack), and found some... interesting results. Being of lawful starting alignment was heavily correlated with no artifact wishes (P-value of .003894). Even if one leaves out Valkyries, who were almost all lawful and whose quest artifact (Orb of Fate) appears to be one of the ones other roles most commonly wished for (subjective impression only!), it's still significant - P-value of .032282. Any thoughts? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)		I have done some analysis on 3.6+ Junethack ascensions with dumplogs available (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack), and found some... interesting results. Being of lawful starting alignment was heavily correlated with no artifact wishes (P-value of .003894). Even if one leaves out Valkyries, who were almost all lawful and whose quest artifact (Orb of Fate) appears to be one of the ones other roles most commonly wished for (subjective impression only!), it's still significant - P-value of .032282. Any thoughts? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	:Lawful characters have no good artifact wishes, since any source of carried MR can be stolen, making it worse than GDSM or a cloak of magic resistance. The Sceptre of Might, which used to be a strong lawful wish, goes unused now for this reason and because it must be wielded for MR. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 06:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

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 This page says that lawful and neutral characters need to avoid shoplifting.  I see two problems with this statement.  Firstly, I don't think the term "shoplifting" is defined anywhere on this wiki, and clearing out a shop with the aid of a pet carries no penalty for anyone.  Secondly, AFAIR the penalty for direct theft (the kind that gets the Kops after you) is 1 point of alignment if you are lawful, and I do not believe that neutrals are penalised at all.
 [[User:Ekaterin|Ekaterin]] 09:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 :I changed it a little bit to make it a little clearer, and also corrected the neutral thing.  --[[User:MadDawg2552|MadDawg2552]] 01:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 ::Oops, I might have confused [[murder]] and [[stealing from shops]] when editing this [[alignment]] page. Various sources agree with Ekaterin that neutrals have no penalty for direct theft. Apparently neutrals have some penalty for murder. Thanks for any corrections, [[User:Kernigh|Kernigh]] 05:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 The article states that the Law-Chaos alignment axis probably comes from D&D.  While this is likely true, I think it may be useful to point out that D&D got the inspiration for this system from the stories of Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock (from whom we also got Stormbringer, for example).  Wikipedia has a discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29#History here].
 I'm not a fan of the claim that "White unicorns are slightly more common than other colors, to compensate for the fact that they don't appear in Gehennom" is be an advantage to lawful types. I don't know about you, but when I was a lawful character and encountered a white unicorn, I groaned because it meant I couldn't kill it without suffering some consequences. I wanted hostile unicorns so I could kill them and get the extremely valuable horn. [[User:Lord Seth|Lord Seth]] 07:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:39, 2 July 2021
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	The {{frac\|2\|3}} is not supported by the formula given on [[peaceful]] or by the source {{refsrc\|src/makemon.c\|2039\|version=NetHack 3.6.6}}, which implies a peaceful probability of <math>(1-\frac{1}{16+\text{your alignment record}})(1-\frac{1}{2+\|\text{monster alignment}\|})</math> if I am reading it correctly. When monster alignment is 0, this approaches a limit of {{frac\|1\|2}} when your alignment record is large. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 04:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)		The {{frac\|2\|3}} is not supported by the formula given on [[peaceful]] or by the source {{refsrc\|src/makemon.c\|2039\|version=NetHack 3.6.6}}, which implies a peaceful probability of <math>(1-\frac{1}{16+\text{your alignment record}})(1-\frac{1}{2+\|\text{monster alignment}\|})</math> if I am reading it correctly. When monster alignment is 0, this approaches a limit of {{frac\|1\|2}} when your alignment record is large. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 04:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
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		+	== Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results ==
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		+	I have done some analysis on 3.6+ Junethack ascensions with dumplogs available (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack), and found some... interesting results. Being of lawful starting alignment was heavily correlated with no artifact wishes (P-value of .003894). Even if one leaves out Valkyries, who were almost all lawful and whose quest artifact (Orb of Fate) appears to be one of the ones other roles most commonly wished for (subjective impression only!), it's still significant - P-value of .032282. Any thoughts? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)