Talk:Archon - Revision history

Kynde: /* typo */

2013-03-28T11:18:11Z

‎typo

Kynde: /* yet another reason to give the !oGLs to pets or drink them cursed */

2013-03-28T11:16:19Z

‎yet another reason to give the !oGLs to pets or drink them cursed

Erica: answer

2012-02-10T06:04:10Z

answer

Derekt75: /* Archons peaceful for lawful characters */

2012-02-08T17:53:24Z

‎Archons peaceful for lawful characters

Ion frigate: /* almost guaranteed to see one to several? */

2012-02-08T07:33:14Z

‎almost guaranteed to see one to several?

Erica: more details

2012-02-08T04:50:29Z

more details

Erica: Archons on Plane of Fire

2012-02-08T04:31:23Z

Archons on Plane of Fire

Erica: explain my edit

2012-02-08T03:01:17Z

explain my edit

Qazmlpok at 02:49, 8 February 2012

2012-02-08T02:49:11Z

Erica: I forgot about this...

2012-02-08T02:38:57Z

I forgot about this...

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 ::With confused gold detection you can generally cross Fire in 40 turns or less - so Archons would still be fairly infrequent from turn-based generation.  But I definitely do recall seeing Archons a lot more on Fire and Air than anywhere else.  Do you know what the chances are of the levels being generated with one or more Archons? -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] 07:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 :::My understanding is that the monsters that each of the Planes is generated with are all pre-determined; for example, the Plane of Earth will always be generated with the same 63 monsters that are listed in the Plane of Earth article. The only plane that includes random monsters in its initial generation is the Plane of Water (four of the monsters are "random"). But those monsters will never be Archons, because Archons are not swimmers. Therefore, none of the planes can be generated with an Archon, unless some of the monsters that would normally be generated are genocided or extinct. In that case, those monsters are replaced by random monsters, which can be Archons. --[[User:Erica|Erica]] 06:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
-::These are worthy points being made here. I wasn't aware that lower spectrum of monster difficultie gets chopped off with enough level (experience and effective dungeon combined). Based on the above the chances of encountering an Archon on fire and air would be considerably different between heroes of experience levels 14 and 30. I stopped maxing my level a long time ago because of the diminished gains and all the nasties that go with it. This explains why I haven't met one in a loong time (aside from blessed figurines of course). [[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
+::These are worthy points being made here. I wasn't aware that the lower end of the monster spectrum gets chopped off from random generation with enough level (experience and effective dungeon combined). Based on the above the chances of encountering an Archon on fire and air would be considerably different between heroes of experience levels 14 and 30. I stopped maxing my level a long time ago because of the diminished gains and all the nasties that go with it. This explains why I haven't met one in a loong time (aside from blessed figurines of course). [[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 ==Archons peaceful for lawful characters==

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 ::With confused gold detection you can generally cross Fire in 40 turns or less - so Archons would still be fairly infrequent from turn-based generation.  But I definitely do recall seeing Archons a lot more on Fire and Air than anywhere else.  Do you know what the chances are of the levels being generated with one or more Archons? -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] 07:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 :::My understanding is that the monsters that each of the Planes is generated with are all pre-determined; for example, the Plane of Earth will always be generated with the same 63 monsters that are listed in the Plane of Earth article. The only plane that includes random monsters in its initial generation is the Plane of Water (four of the monsters are "random"). But those monsters will never be Archons, because Archons are not swimmers. Therefore, none of the planes can be generated with an Archon, unless some of the monsters that would normally be generated are genocided or extinct. In that case, those monsters are replaced by random monsters, which can be Archons. --[[User:Erica|Erica]] 06:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 ==Archons peaceful for lawful characters==

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 :For the Plane of Fire, I can only find five monsters that are fire resistant, difficulty 11 or higher and can be generated outside of Gehennom (Archon, iron golem, red dragon, fire giant, xorn). They all have frequency 1, so a randomly generated monster has a 1/5 chance of being an Archon. This translates to an average of one Archon every 125 turns.  For a lower level character, difficulty 10 monsters would become eligible, and three of them can be randomly generated on the Plane of Fire (fire elemental, fire vortex, flesh golem). In that case, a randomly generated monster has a 1/8 chance of being an Archon. So if you remember meeting more Archons on the Plane of Fire than elsewhere, that's the explanation. --[[User:Erica|Erica]] 04:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 ::With confused gold detection you can generally cross Fire in 40 turns or less - so Archons would still be fairly infrequent from turn-based generation.  But I definitely do recall seeing Archons a lot more on Fire and Air than anywhere else.  Do you know what the chances are of the levels being generated with one or more Archons? -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] 07:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 ==Archons peaceful for lawful characters==

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:53, 8 February 2012
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	Archons have the M2_MINION flag, which peace_minded checks for after checking that the monster is coaligned, but before using the normal formula to determine whether or not the monster is peaceful: [[makemon.c#line1586]]. If I understand the formula correctly, the result is that an Archon will be generated peaceful for a lawful hero if and only if alignment record is >= 0, and always hostile for neutral and chaotic heroes. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 03:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)		Archons have the M2_MINION flag, which peace_minded checks for after checking that the monster is coaligned, but before using the normal formula to determine whether or not the monster is peaceful: [[makemon.c#line1586]]. If I understand the formula correctly, the result is that an Archon will be generated peaceful for a lawful hero if and only if alignment record is >= 0, and always hostile for neutral and chaotic heroes. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 03:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
		+	:Thanks for the correction and the explanation. [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] 17:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 ::Interesting. Never heard of that before, although it does match my experiences now that I think about it. Plane of fire would also favor archons slightly since they're fire resistant and water will never have archons because they aren't swimmers. -- [[User:Qazmlpok|Qazmlpok]] 02:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 :For the Plane of Fire, I can only find five monsters that are fire resistant, difficulty 11 or higher and can be generated outside of Gehennom (Archon, iron golem, red dragon, fire giant, xorn). They all have frequency 1, so a randomly generated monster has a 1/5 chance of being an Archon. This translates to an average of one Archon every 125 turns.  For a lower level character, difficulty 10 monsters would become eligible, and three of them can be randomly generated on the Plane of Fire (fire elemental, fire vortex, flesh golem). In that case, a randomly generated monster has a 1/8 chance of being an Archon. So if you remember meeting more Archons on the Plane of Fire than elsewhere, that's the explanation. --[[User:Erica|Erica]] 04:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 ==Archons peaceful for lawful characters==
 Archons have the M2_MINION flag, which peace_minded checks for after checking that the monster is coaligned, but before using the normal formula to determine whether or not the monster is peaceful: [[makemon.c#line1586]]. If I understand the formula correctly, the result is that an Archon will be generated peaceful for a lawful hero if and only if alignment record is >= 0, and always hostile for neutral and chaotic heroes. --[[User:Erica|Erica]] 03:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:01, 8 February 2012
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	:There is something I forgot to take into account. When you're in the Planes, randomly generated monsters must be able to survive in the plane's hostile environment. For example, on the Plane of Air, the monsters must be one of the following: flying (other than a monster with symbol "t"), floating, amorphous, noncorporeal, whirly. This means that in the situation I described earlier (hero level 30, Sanctum level 53), the probability of a random monster being an Archon is not 1/66, but rather 1/22. This means an average of one Archon every 550 turns on the Plane of Air. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 02:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)		:There is something I forgot to take into account. When you're in the Planes, randomly generated monsters must be able to survive in the plane's hostile environment. For example, on the Plane of Air, the monsters must be one of the following: flying (other than a monster with symbol "t"), floating, amorphous, noncorporeal, whirly. This means that in the situation I described earlier (hero level 30, Sanctum level 53), the probability of a random monster being an Archon is not 1/66, but rather 1/22. This means an average of one Archon every 550 turns on the Plane of Air. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 02:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
	::Interesting. Never heard of that before, although it does match my experiences now that I think about it. Plane of fire would also favor archons slightly since they're fire resistant and water will never have archons because they aren't swimmers. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 02:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)		::Interesting. Never heard of that before, although it does match my experiences now that I think about it. Plane of fire would also favor archons slightly since they're fire resistant and water will never have archons because they aren't swimmers. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 02:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
		+
		+	==Archons peaceful for lawful characters==
		+
		+	Archons have the M2_MINION flag, which peace_minded checks for after checking that the monster is coaligned, but before using the normal formula to determine whether or not the monster is peaceful: [[makemon.c#line1586]]. If I understand the formula correctly, the result is that an Archon will be generated peaceful for a lawful hero if and only if alignment record is >= 0, and always hostile for neutral and chaotic heroes. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 03:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:49, 8 February 2012
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	:::Erica's calculations do take frequency into account. It also assumes level 30 and level 53 sanctum, which eliminates the chances of some weaker monsters spawning. Lower level characters would have a somewhat greater range of possible monsters and thus less chance of seeing an archon. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 23:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)		:::Erica's calculations do take frequency into account. It also assumes level 30 and level 53 sanctum, which eliminates the chances of some weaker monsters spawning. Lower level characters would have a somewhat greater range of possible monsters and thus less chance of seeing an archon. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 23:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
	:There is something I forgot to take into account. When you're in the Planes, randomly generated monsters must be able to survive in the plane's hostile environment. For example, on the Plane of Air, the monsters must be one of the following: flying (other than a monster with symbol "t"), floating, amorphous, noncorporeal, whirly. This means that in the situation I described earlier (hero level 30, Sanctum level 53), the probability of a random monster being an Archon is not 1/66, but rather 1/22. This means an average of one Archon every 550 turns on the Plane of Air. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 02:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)		:There is something I forgot to take into account. When you're in the Planes, randomly generated monsters must be able to survive in the plane's hostile environment. For example, on the Plane of Air, the monsters must be one of the following: flying (other than a monster with symbol "t"), floating, amorphous, noncorporeal, whirly. This means that in the situation I described earlier (hero level 30, Sanctum level 53), the probability of a random monster being an Archon is not 1/66, but rather 1/22. This means an average of one Archon every 550 turns on the Plane of Air. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 02:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
		+	::Interesting. Never heard of that before, although it does match my experiences now that I think about it. Plane of fire would also favor archons slightly since they're fire resistant and water will never have archons because they aren't swimmers. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 02:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:38, 8 February 2012
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	::Yeah, I think initial generation is the most likely way for one to get generated. I think the random generation calculation also needs to include the "frequency", and Archons have a frequency of 1 (very rare). Alignment would matter, too, if the planes have any alignment (but they don't, do they?). Anyway, I deleted the "almost guaranteed" line. I don't know the numerical odds, but I'm confident it's less than "almost guaranteed". [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] 17:25, 7 February 2012 (UTC)		::Yeah, I think initial generation is the most likely way for one to get generated. I think the random generation calculation also needs to include the "frequency", and Archons have a frequency of 1 (very rare). Alignment would matter, too, if the planes have any alignment (but they don't, do they?). Anyway, I deleted the "almost guaranteed" line. I don't know the numerical odds, but I'm confident it's less than "almost guaranteed". [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] 17:25, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
	:::Erica's calculations do take frequency into account. It also assumes level 30 and level 53 sanctum, which eliminates the chances of some weaker monsters spawning. Lower level characters would have a somewhat greater range of possible monsters and thus less chance of seeing an archon. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 23:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)		:::Erica's calculations do take frequency into account. It also assumes level 30 and level 53 sanctum, which eliminates the chances of some weaker monsters spawning. Lower level characters would have a somewhat greater range of possible monsters and thus less chance of seeing an archon. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 23:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
		+	:There is something I forgot to take into account. When you're in the Planes, randomly generated monsters must be able to survive in the plane's hostile environment. For example, on the Plane of Air, the monsters must be one of the following: flying (other than a monster with symbol "t"), floating, amorphous, noncorporeal, whirly. This means that in the situation I described earlier (hero level 30, Sanctum level 53), the probability of a random monster being an Archon is not 1/66, but rather 1/22. This means an average of one Archon every 550 turns on the Plane of Air. --[[User:Erica\|Erica]] 02:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)