Talk:Crowning - Revision history

D4 wryyyy: /* Avoiding Crowning */

2021-12-15T06:52:33Z

‎Avoiding Crowning

Cathartes: /* Avoiding Crowning */

2021-12-15T06:39:09Z

‎Avoiding Crowning

Testbutt: /* Avoiding Crowning */

2021-12-15T06:21:48Z

‎Avoiding Crowning

Cathartes: /* Avoiding Crowning */ reply

2021-12-15T06:01:33Z

‎Avoiding Crowning: reply

D4 wryyyy: /* Avoiding Crowning */ new section

2021-12-15T05:27:17Z

‎Avoiding Crowning: new section

Actual-nh: /* Retaining title even if different alignment */ Typo

2021-06-11T17:00:41Z

‎Retaining title even if different alignment: Typo

Actual-nh: /* Multiple crowning= */ Typo

2021-06-11T16:59:46Z

‎Multiple crowning=: Typo

Actual-nh: /* Retaining title even if different alignment */ new section

2021-06-11T16:59:28Z

‎Retaining title even if different alignment: new section

Tjr: no

2010-11-25T13:06:08Z

Ndwolfwood: /* Unrestricted Skill */

2010-11-25T08:25:17Z

‎Unrestricted Skill

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:52, 15 December 2021
Line 29:		Line 29:
	:If the avoidance of crowning is expanded, it shouldn't be framed as the best or correct way to play. Players do die in Gehennom from the lack of fire or cold resistance, which would be particularly embarrassing if they've been diligently avoiding becoming crowned due to wiki advice. And for Chaotics, the existence of stormbringer makes crowning extremely worthwhile. The real life time cost of tediously acquiring all your intrinsics from corpses is also a factor in favor of crowning. Pulling up nethackscoreboard, I am seeing that Tariru and Luxidream were crowned in about 1/3 of their games, including streak games, so encouraging players to avoid it may be a bit of a noob trap, like the protection racket. [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 06:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		:If the avoidance of crowning is expanded, it shouldn't be framed as the best or correct way to play. Players do die in Gehennom from the lack of fire or cold resistance, which would be particularly embarrassing if they've been diligently avoiding becoming crowned due to wiki advice. And for Chaotics, the existence of stormbringer makes crowning extremely worthwhile. The real life time cost of tediously acquiring all your intrinsics from corpses is also a factor in favor of crowning. Pulling up nethackscoreboard, I am seeing that Tariru and Luxidream were crowned in about 1/3 of their games, including streak games, so encouraging players to avoid it may be a bit of a noob trap, like the protection racket. [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 06:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
	::Right, "how to avoid crowning" is still valid advice as long as it's not written as "you should avoid crowning". Crowning is really not a big deal in mid-to-late game since the need for an emergency prayer is rare when you have resistances and most of an ascension kit. The most plausible reason I can think of to avoid crowning is to do altar prayer farming (for spellbooks, probably) a little bit faster. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:39, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		::Right, "how to avoid crowning" is still valid advice as long as it's not written as "you should avoid crowning". Crowning is really not a big deal in mid-to-late game since the need for an emergency prayer is rare when you have resistances and most of an ascension kit. The most plausible reason I can think of to avoid crowning is to do altar prayer farming (for spellbooks, probably) a little bit faster. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:39, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
		+	:: I'm thinking firstly of monks b/c of their intrinsics, but also of anyone who has intrinsics from scarfing corpses, and who really loves to pray. On a scale of nub to 10 I'm only about a 3, but oh my Huan Ti I am addicted to prayer, dude. [[User:D4 wryyyy\|D4 wryyyy]] ([[User talk:D4 wryyyy\|talk]]) 06:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:39, 15 December 2021
Line 28:		Line 28:
	:Also, when information that has been in an article for a long time is wrong, like what you found about cross-aligned altar prayer (in place [[Special:PermanentLink/17677\|since 2007!]]), it probably means that it was true in an old version, but nobody bothered to update the page for the current version. The prayer article needs somebody to review it and update its source code references to 3.6.6, but since it's a decently long article and prayer is one of the more complex parts of the game, that would take a while. If I find time to do so, I guess I could do it since that's the sort of thing I do sometimes, and it seems unlikely that somebody else will in the near future. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		:Also, when information that has been in an article for a long time is wrong, like what you found about cross-aligned altar prayer (in place [[Special:PermanentLink/17677\|since 2007!]]), it probably means that it was true in an old version, but nobody bothered to update the page for the current version. The prayer article needs somebody to review it and update its source code references to 3.6.6, but since it's a decently long article and prayer is one of the more complex parts of the game, that would take a while. If I find time to do so, I guess I could do it since that's the sort of thing I do sometimes, and it seems unlikely that somebody else will in the near future. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
	:If the avoidance of crowning is expanded, it shouldn't be framed as the best or correct way to play. Players do die in Gehennom from the lack of fire or cold resistance, which would be particularly embarrassing if they've been diligently avoiding becoming crowned due to wiki advice. And for Chaotics, the existence of stormbringer makes crowning extremely worthwhile. The real life time cost of tediously acquiring all your intrinsics from corpses is also a factor in favor of crowning. Pulling up nethackscoreboard, I am seeing that Tariru and Luxidream were crowned in about 1/3 of their games, including streak games, so encouraging players to avoid it may be a bit of a noob trap, like the protection racket. [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 06:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		:If the avoidance of crowning is expanded, it shouldn't be framed as the best or correct way to play. Players do die in Gehennom from the lack of fire or cold resistance, which would be particularly embarrassing if they've been diligently avoiding becoming crowned due to wiki advice. And for Chaotics, the existence of stormbringer makes crowning extremely worthwhile. The real life time cost of tediously acquiring all your intrinsics from corpses is also a factor in favor of crowning. Pulling up nethackscoreboard, I am seeing that Tariru and Luxidream were crowned in about 1/3 of their games, including streak games, so encouraging players to avoid it may be a bit of a noob trap, like the protection racket. [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 06:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
		+	::Right, "how to avoid crowning" is still valid advice as long as it's not written as "you should avoid crowning". Crowning is really not a big deal in mid-to-late game since the need for an emergency prayer is rare when you have resistances and most of an ascension kit. The most plausible reason I can think of to avoid crowning is to do altar prayer farming (for spellbooks, probably) a little bit faster. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:39, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:21, 15 December 2021
Line 27:		Line 27:
	:Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for the [[prayer]] article to have more information about avoiding crowning than the [[crowning]] article itself. Go ahead and expand the section.		:Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for the [[prayer]] article to have more information about avoiding crowning than the [[crowning]] article itself. Go ahead and expand the section.
	:Also, when information that has been in an article for a long time is wrong, like what you found about cross-aligned altar prayer (in place [[Special:PermanentLink/17677\|since 2007!]]), it probably means that it was true in an old version, but nobody bothered to update the page for the current version. The prayer article needs somebody to review it and update its source code references to 3.6.6, but since it's a decently long article and prayer is one of the more complex parts of the game, that would take a while. If I find time to do so, I guess I could do it since that's the sort of thing I do sometimes, and it seems unlikely that somebody else will in the near future. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		:Also, when information that has been in an article for a long time is wrong, like what you found about cross-aligned altar prayer (in place [[Special:PermanentLink/17677\|since 2007!]]), it probably means that it was true in an old version, but nobody bothered to update the page for the current version. The prayer article needs somebody to review it and update its source code references to 3.6.6, but since it's a decently long article and prayer is one of the more complex parts of the game, that would take a while. If I find time to do so, I guess I could do it since that's the sort of thing I do sometimes, and it seems unlikely that somebody else will in the near future. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
		+	:If the avoidance of crowning is expanded, it shouldn't be framed as the best or correct way to play. Players do die in Gehennom from the lack of fire or cold resistance, which would be particularly embarrassing if they've been diligently avoiding becoming crowned due to wiki advice. And for Chaotics, the existence of stormbringer makes crowning extremely worthwhile. The real life time cost of tediously acquiring all your intrinsics from corpses is also a factor in favor of crowning. Pulling up nethackscoreboard, I am seeing that Tariru and Luxidream were crowned in about 1/3 of their games, including streak games, so encouraging players to avoid it may be a bit of a noob trap, like the protection racket. [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 06:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:01, 15 December 2021
Line 24:		Line 24:

	Please do not pray on cross-aligned altars, even with no water, if you enjoy your protection and are not fond of being chained to iron balls.[[User:D4 wryyyy\|D4 wryyyy]] ([[User talk:D4 wryyyy\|talk]]) 05:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)		Please do not pray on cross-aligned altars, even with no water, if you enjoy your protection and are not fond of being chained to iron balls.[[User:D4 wryyyy\|D4 wryyyy]] ([[User talk:D4 wryyyy\|talk]]) 05:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for the [[prayer]] article to have more information about avoiding crowning than the [[crowning]] article itself. Go ahead and expand the section.
		+	:Also, when information that has been in an article for a long time is wrong, like what you found about cross-aligned altar prayer (in place [[Special:PermanentLink/17677\|since 2007!]]), it probably means that it was true in an old version, but nobody bothered to update the page for the current version. The prayer article needs somebody to review it and update its source code references to 3.6.6, but since it's a decently long article and prayer is one of the more complex parts of the game, that would take a while. If I find time to do so, I guess I could do it since that's the sort of thing I do sometimes, and it seems unlikely that somebody else will in the near future. [[User:Cathartes\|Cathartes]] ([[User talk:Cathartes\|talk]]) 06:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:27, 15 December 2021
Line 12:		Line 12:

	From looking at [https://junethack.net/ascensions ascension records] from Junethack, I noticed that one keeps the same title even if one's alignment changes via a [[helm of opposite alignment]]. Is this true if conversion happens via an altar? (And I find it rather odd that one retains the intrinsics even after changing alignment...) -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)		From looking at [https://junethack.net/ascensions ascension records] from Junethack, I noticed that one keeps the same title even if one's alignment changes via a [[helm of opposite alignment]]. Is this true if conversion happens via an altar? (And I find it rather odd that one retains the intrinsics even after changing alignment...) -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Avoiding Crowning ==
		+
		+	IMO Avoiding Crowning needs to be its own section and greatly expanded. I went ahead and split off the section.
		+
		+	That "there are three ways to avoid being crowned" is a heckuvan oversimplification, and the given suggestions require scrutiny of at least 3 articles-- [[luck]], [[alignment record]], [[stethoscope]]-- and in practice at least [[prayer]], [[offer]], and [[monk]] too. Alarmingly, the article on alignment record does not include other negative effects of the actions in the table. I would like to combine the best methods for controlling luck and alignment specifically with regards to crowning.
		+
		+	I am waiting to put them in the article until someone else has a chance to opine, in case anyone thinks there is a better place for that list to be laid out. Please note that there is a partial list under [[prayer#favors and Gifts]].
		+
		+	I started this edit with the intention of writing up a method for using a non-co-aligned altar to both monitor and manage your alignment record (basically get align below 19 by repeatedly praying on it while checking the alignment message), but in fact-checking for writing it, I found that the information in [[Prayer#Unsuccessful Prayers]] claiming the ONLY effect of "standing on a different god's altar and praying as normal" is a message on alignment record, and a -1 to alignment, is WRONG. Your god WILL become angry IMMEDIATELY. So I'm off to fix that inaccuracy instead.
		+
		+	Please do not pray on cross-aligned altars, even with no water, if you enjoy your protection and are not fond of being chained to iron balls.[[User:D4 wryyyy\|D4 wryyyy]] ([[User talk:D4 wryyyy\|talk]]) 05:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:00, 11 June 2021
Line 11:		Line 11:
	== Retaining title even if different alignment ==		== Retaining title even if different alignment ==

−	From looking at ~~ascension records from [~~[https://junethack.net/ascensions Junethack]], I ~~notice~~ that one keeps the same title even if one's alignment changes via a [[helm of opposite alignment]]. Is this true if conversion happens via an altar? (And I find it rather odd that one retains the intrinsics even after changing alignment...) -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)	+	From looking at [https://junethack.net/ascensions ascension records] from Junethack, I noticed that one keeps the same title even if one's alignment changes via a [[helm of opposite alignment]]. Is this true if conversion happens via an altar? (And I find it rather odd that one retains the intrinsics even after changing alignment...) -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 :Cool, thanks.--[[User:Andronikus|Andronikus]] 16:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
-==Multiple crowning===
+==Multiple crowning==
 Can you be crowned more than once?  E.g. I get crowned as a neutral charecter and then convert to chaos cold I hold both titles? {{unsigned|Ndwolfwood}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:59, 11 June 2021
Line 8:		Line 8:

	: No, crowning is only once. But you can hold the title of a different religion (the one you were crowned under) if you fiddle with the [[helm of opposite alignment]] or conversion. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 13:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)		: No, crowning is only once. But you can hold the title of a different religion (the one you were crowned under) if you fiddle with the [[helm of opposite alignment]] or conversion. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 13:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Retaining title even if different alignment ==
		+
		+	From looking at ascension records from [[https://junethack.net/ascensions Junethack]], I notice that one keeps the same title even if one's alignment changes via a [[helm of opposite alignment]]. Is this true if conversion happens via an altar? (And I find it rather odd that one retains the intrinsics even after changing alignment...) -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:06, 25 November 2010
Line 4:		Line 4:
	:Cool, thanks.--[[User:Andronikus\|Andronikus]] 16:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC)		:Cool, thanks.--[[User:Andronikus\|Andronikus]] 16:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

−	~~can~~ you be crowned more ~~thn~~ once? E.g. I get crowned as a neutral charecter and then convert to ~~chasos~~ cold I hold both titles?	+	==Multiple crowning===
		+	Can you be crowned more than once? E.g. I get crowned as a neutral charecter and then convert to chaos cold I hold both titles? {{unsigned\|Ndwolfwood}}
		+
		+	: No, crowning is only once. But you can hold the title of a different religion (the one you were crowned under) if you fiddle with the [[helm of opposite alignment]] or conversion. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 13:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:25, 25 November 2010
Line 4:		Line 4:
	:Cool, thanks.--[[User:Andronikus\|Andronikus]] 16:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC)		:Cool, thanks.--[[User:Andronikus\|Andronikus]] 16:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

−	can you be crowned more thn once? E.g. I get crowned as a ~~neautral~~ charecter and then ~~switch~~ convert to chasos cold I hold ~~bth~~ titles?	+	can you be crowned more thn once? E.g. I get crowned as a neutral charecter and then convert to chasos cold I hold both titles?