Talk:Engraving - Revision history

Phol ende wodan: /* Engrave Engraving */ reply

2022-08-12T00:56:14Z

‎Engrave Engraving: reply

Bruceleroy99: redirect swap q?

2022-08-12T00:07:56Z

redirect swap q?

66.249.228.124: /* Table for erosion of semi-permanent/permanent */ new section

2016-03-05T05:06:48Z

‎Table for erosion of semi-permanent/permanent: new section

Mykal: /* Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers */

2014-08-01T19:35:49Z

‎Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers

Ilmari Karonen: /* Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers */

2014-08-01T01:54:31Z

‎Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers

Ilmari Karonen: /* Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers */

2014-08-01T01:53:10Z

‎Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers

Mykal: /* Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers */

2014-07-31T16:10:33Z

‎Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers

Mykal: /* Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers */ new section

2014-07-31T15:50:52Z

‎Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers: new section

Gonr: /* riding */

2014-02-14T22:40:24Z

‎riding

Derekt75: /* riding */

2013-07-26T18:48:48Z

‎riding

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:56, 12 August 2022
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	==Engrave <> Engraving==		==Engrave <> Engraving==
	Should this page redirect to [[engrave]] instead of the other way around to match the # command (a la [[dip]] vs [[dipping]])? --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)		Should this page redirect to [[engrave]] instead of the other way around to match the # command (a la [[dip]] vs [[dipping]])? --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	:Eh, it seems equally valid, if they were structured like that, to say "Should this page redirect to engraving to match other types of dungeon features?" I could maaaybe see trying to split the engrave action and engravings into their own pages, but that seems like it would be messy and involve a lot of clicking back and forth between the two. Key difference between this and dip is that "a dipping" isn't a noun used by the game and code; "an engraving" is. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 00:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:07, 12 August 2022
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	*Is the column with probabilities as ratios (i.e. 1 in 26 and such) helpful? Clearly for the d''n'' cases it's not, but I felt it was helpful for the first 3 entries, and not very harmful for the rest.		*Is the column with probabilities as ratios (i.e. 1 in 26 and such) helpful? Clearly for the d''n'' cases it's not, but I felt it was helpful for the first 3 entries, and not very harmful for the rest.
	--[[Special:Contributions/66.249.228.124\|66.249.228.124]] 05:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)		--[[Special:Contributions/66.249.228.124\|66.249.228.124]] 05:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
		+
		+	==Engrave <> Engraving==
		+	Should this page redirect to [[engrave]] instead of the other way around to match the # command (a la [[dip]] vs [[dipping]])? --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:06, 5 March 2016
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	:: OIC. Sorry. [[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 19:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)		:: OIC. Sorry. [[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 19:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Table for erosion of semi-permanent/permanent ==
		+
		+	<blockquote>Something is written here in the dust. You read: "Elbenerf".</blockquote>
		+	With the changes to Elbereth in 3.6.0, I have become a lot more interested in the behavior of semi-permanent engravings, and I didn't see any detailed information (i.e. beyond "0 or 1 characters") in the usual places. So I dove into the sources, and not only found answers, but discovered the information was even more important than I thought -- the exact same behavior also applies to the magical degradation of "permanent" engravings, although there's only a 50% chance of it happening. So I've compiled a table and put it here -- I hope it proves helpful.
		+
		+	I have several thoughts about deficiencies or possibilities to improve it; hope someone can take a look at these:
		+	*The headings for the first two columns are far too long. If anyone can come up with shorter wordings, please please fix it!
		+	*Related: the "Semi-permanent" should span columns 2 and 3, if possible, with "chance of..." and "percent" as sub-headings. I'm not sure if this can be done, and if so how to do it.
		+	*Should there be another column, showing the effective percentage against permanent engravings? This would be half the "Percent" column, for magic cases, and 0 for the others. I'm not sure whether this is helpful or needless clutter.
		+	*Is the column with probabilities as ratios (i.e. 1 in 26 and such) helpful? Clearly for the d''n'' cases it's not, but I felt it was helpful for the first 3 entries, and not very harmful for the rest.
		+	--[[Special:Contributions/66.249.228.124\|66.249.228.124]] 05:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:35, 1 August 2014
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	: When you misengrave a letter, there's a 1/94 chance that the random ASCII character chosen to replace it ({{sourcecode\|engrave.c\|1002}}) happens to match the one you were trying to write (and, since Elbereth is case-insensitive, a 2/94 chance that the misengraving will have no practical effect). Thus, the true probability of each letter changing (other than simply flipping case) is 1/25 × 92/94 ≈ 0.03915 rather than 1/25 = 0.04. Accounting for this, the probability of writing a working Elbereth is indeed about 0.72652. --[[User:Ilmari Karonen\|Ilmari Karonen]] ([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen\|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)		: When you misengrave a letter, there's a 1/94 chance that the random ASCII character chosen to replace it ({{sourcecode\|engrave.c\|1002}}) happens to match the one you were trying to write (and, since Elbereth is case-insensitive, a 2/94 chance that the misengraving will have no practical effect). Thus, the true probability of each letter changing (other than simply flipping case) is 1/25 × 92/94 ≈ 0.03915 rather than 1/25 = 0.04. Accounting for this, the probability of writing a working Elbereth is indeed about 0.72652. --[[User:Ilmari Karonen\|Ilmari Karonen]] ([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen\|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	:: OIC. Sorry. [[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 19:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:54, 1 August 2014
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	[[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)		[[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

−	: When you misengrave a letter, there's a 1/94 chance that the random ASCII character chosen to replace it ({{sourcecode\|engrave.c\|1002}}) happens to match the one you were trying to write (and, since Elbereth is case-insensitive, a 2/94 chance that the misengraving will have no practical effect). Thus, the true probability of each letter changing (other than simply flipping case) is 1/25 × 92/94 ~~≈~~ 0.03915 rather than 1/25 = 0.04. Accounting for this, the probability of writing a working Elbereth is indeed about 0.72652. --[[User:Ilmari Karonen\|Ilmari Karonen]] ([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen\|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)	+	: When you misengrave a letter, there's a 1/94 chance that the random ASCII character chosen to replace it ({{sourcecode\|engrave.c\|1002}}) happens to match the one you were trying to write (and, since Elbereth is case-insensitive, a 2/94 chance that the misengraving will have no practical effect). Thus, the true probability of each letter changing (other than simply flipping case) is 1/25 × 92/94 ≈ 0.03915 rather than 1/25 = 0.04. Accounting for this, the probability of writing a working Elbereth is indeed about 0.72652. --[[User:Ilmari Karonen\|Ilmari Karonen]] ([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen\|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:53, 1 August 2014
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	This article states that every letter you write in the dust with your fingers has a 1/25 chance of being misengraved. It then claims that the chance of succesfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers is 72.6%. The actual chance of successfully engraving a message with your fingers is represented by .96<sup>n</sup>, where ''n'' represents the number of letters in the message (.96 = 24/25). Elbereth has eight letters, and [https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=.96%5E8 .96<sup>8</sup>≈72.1]. So, unless I'm missing a variable, you have about a 72.1% chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers on your first try, and I think the article should be changed to reflect that.		This article states that every letter you write in the dust with your fingers has a 1/25 chance of being misengraved. It then claims that the chance of succesfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers is 72.6%. The actual chance of successfully engraving a message with your fingers is represented by .96<sup>n</sup>, where ''n'' represents the number of letters in the message (.96 = 24/25). Elbereth has eight letters, and [https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=.96%5E8 .96<sup>8</sup>≈72.1]. So, unless I'm missing a variable, you have about a 72.1% chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers on your first try, and I think the article should be changed to reflect that.
	[[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)		[[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	: When you misengrave a letter, there's a 1/94 chance that the random ASCII character chosen to replace it ({{sourcecode\|engrave.c\|1002}}) happens to match the one you were trying to write (and, since Elbereth is case-insensitive, a 2/94 chance that the misengraving will have no practical effect). Thus, the true probability of each letter changing (other than simply flipping case) is 1/25 × 92/94 ≈ 0.03915 rather than 1/25 = 0.04. Accounting for this, the probability of writing a working Elbereth is indeed about 0.72652. --[[User:Ilmari Karonen\|Ilmari Karonen]] ([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen\|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

@@ Line 81: / Line 81: @@
 == Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers ==
-This article states that every letter you write in the dust with your fingers has a 1/25 chance of being misengraved. It then claims that the chance of succesfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers is 72.6%. The actual chance of successfully engraving a message with your fingers is represented by 96<sup>n</sup>, where ''n'' represents the number of letters in the message (.96 = 24/25). Elbereth has eight letters, and [https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=.96%5E8 96<sup>8</sup>≈72.1]. So, unless I'm missing a variable, you have about a 72.1% chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers on your first try, and I think the article should be changed to reflect that.
+This article states that every letter you write in the dust with your fingers has a 1/25 chance of being misengraved. It then claims that the chance of succesfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers is 72.6%. The actual chance of successfully engraving a message with your fingers is represented by .96<sup>n</sup>, where ''n'' represents the number of letters in the message (.96 = 24/25). Elbereth has eight letters, and [https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=.96%5E8 .96<sup>8</sup>≈72.1]. So, unless I'm missing a variable, you have about a 72.1% chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers on your first try, and I think the article should be changed to reflect that.
 [[User:Mykal|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:50, 31 July 2014
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	I was curious and checked it out. It is much, much harder to engrave when riding because your steed will walk all over the engraving. The actual erosion call is at monmove.c:336. Steeds erode engravings on each of their turns, one guaranteed letter per turn. (and not upon movement: steeds effectively rest each turn, at monmove.c:512). Thus, if you're at normal speed sitting on a warhorse (speed 24) and try to Elbereth in the dust, two letters are guaranteed to erode, and it is thus impossible to Elbereth in one turn. You can successfully Elbereth only if there is already an engraving, and the two erased letters happen to be from the old engraving. Even then then chances are low (only reaches 50% after 6 Elbereth attempts in the warhorse scenario), and it will be quickly wiped out in subsequent turns anyway. [[User:Gonr\|Gonr]] ([[User talk:Gonr\|talk]]) 22:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)		I was curious and checked it out. It is much, much harder to engrave when riding because your steed will walk all over the engraving. The actual erosion call is at monmove.c:336. Steeds erode engravings on each of their turns, one guaranteed letter per turn. (and not upon movement: steeds effectively rest each turn, at monmove.c:512). Thus, if you're at normal speed sitting on a warhorse (speed 24) and try to Elbereth in the dust, two letters are guaranteed to erode, and it is thus impossible to Elbereth in one turn. You can successfully Elbereth only if there is already an engraving, and the two erased letters happen to be from the old engraving. Even then then chances are low (only reaches 50% after 6 Elbereth attempts in the warhorse scenario), and it will be quickly wiped out in subsequent turns anyway. [[User:Gonr\|Gonr]] ([[User talk:Gonr\|talk]]) 22:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with fingers ==
		+
		+	This article states that every letter you write in the dust with your fingers has a 1/25 chance of being misengraved. It then claims that the chance of succesfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers is 72.6%. The actual chance of successfully engraving a message with your fingers is represented by 96<sup>n</sup>, where ''n'' represents the number of letters in the message (.96 = 24/25). Elbereth has eight letters, and [https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=.96%5E8 96<sup>8</sup>≈72.1]. So, unless I'm missing a variable, you have about a 72.1% chance of successfully engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers on your first try, and I think the article should be changed to reflect that.
		+	[[User:Mykal\|Mykal]] ([[User talk:Mykal\|talk]]) 15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:40, 14 February 2014
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	but that doesn't make it "more difficult to engrave properly", that makes it "impossible to attempt to engrave", right? Since the line was in the spot about the chance of an Elbereth working, the line implies that someone with Basic riding skill will wind up with a smudged Elbereth more often when riding than when walking. but I don't see this in the code. Should I delete the sentence from the article? [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 18:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)		but that doesn't make it "more difficult to engrave properly", that makes it "impossible to attempt to engrave", right? Since the line was in the spot about the chance of an Elbereth working, the line implies that someone with Basic riding skill will wind up with a smudged Elbereth more often when riding than when walking. but I don't see this in the code. Should I delete the sentence from the article? [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 18:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	I was curious and checked it out. It is much, much harder to engrave when riding because your steed will walk all over the engraving. The actual erosion call is at monmove.c:336. Steeds erode engravings on each of their turns, one guaranteed letter per turn. (and not upon movement: steeds effectively rest each turn, at monmove.c:512). Thus, if you're at normal speed sitting on a warhorse (speed 24) and try to Elbereth in the dust, two letters are guaranteed to erode, and it is thus impossible to Elbereth in one turn. You can successfully Elbereth only if there is already an engraving, and the two erased letters happen to be from the old engraving. Even then then chances are low (only reaches 50% after 6 Elbereth attempts in the warhorse scenario), and it will be quickly wiped out in subsequent turns anyway. [[User:Gonr\|Gonr]] ([[User talk:Gonr\|talk]]) 22:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:48, 26 July 2013
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	</pre>		</pre>
	--[[User:Ozymandias\|Ozymandias]] ([[User talk:Ozymandias\|talk]]) 15:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)		--[[User:Ozymandias\|Ozymandias]] ([[User talk:Ozymandias\|talk]]) 15:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	but that doesn't make it "more difficult to engrave properly", that makes it "impossible to attempt to engrave", right? Since the line was in the spot about the chance of an Elbereth working, the line implies that someone with Basic riding skill will wind up with a smudged Elbereth more often when riding than when walking. but I don't see this in the code. Should I delete the sentence from the article? [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 18:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)