Talk:GDSM versus SDSM - Revision history

Cockatrice corpse: /* Stating a preference */

2013-12-01T08:54:16Z

‎Stating a preference

Tjr: disposable MC2 cloaks

2013-11-30T10:32:01Z

disposable MC2 cloaks

Cockatrice corpse: a counterargument against silver dragon scale mail

2013-11-29T11:33:18Z

a counterargument against silver dragon scale mail

Tjr: /* Stating a preference */

2010-10-21T18:41:24Z

‎Stating a preference

Casmith: /* Stating a preference */ oops proper sig

2010-09-21T12:07:32Z

‎Stating a preference: oops proper sig

92.236.187.64: /* Stating a preference */ reasons why SDSM > GDSM

2010-09-21T12:06:45Z

‎Stating a preference: reasons why SDSM > GDSM

Tjr: /* Stating a preference */

2010-09-21T07:59:53Z

‎Stating a preference

Tjr: /* Stating a preference */

2010-09-21T07:11:52Z

‎Stating a preference

Ion frigate at 02:51, 21 September 2010

2010-09-21T02:51:03Z

Killian: if you want to add SLASH'EM info, be my guest

2009-04-04T13:08:38Z

if you want to add SLASH'EM info, be my guest

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:54, 1 December 2013
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	: Maybe my playstyle is very different from yours. I usually get an enchanted shirt much later than silver dragon scale mail.		: Maybe my playstyle is very different from yours. I usually get an enchanted shirt much later than silver dragon scale mail.
	: That leaves the cloak as an argument. The game offers a surprisingly large array of MC2 cloaks in the mines. They are not endgame quality, but they are disposable and still offer the most crucial protection. So you could carry 1-2 spares. I believe the solution is to survive barely until the earliest point when you can get both MR and reflection. So your top priority is to make MR and reflection, rather than the perfect dragon-scales-only outfit. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 10:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)		: That leaves the cloak as an argument. The game offers a surprisingly large array of MC2 cloaks in the mines. They are not endgame quality, but they are disposable and still offer the most crucial protection. So you could carry 1-2 spares. I believe the solution is to survive barely until the earliest point when you can get both MR and reflection. So your top priority is to make MR and reflection, rather than the perfect dragon-scales-only outfit. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 10:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	While I do think that reflection is somewhat important, I prefer magic resistance over reflection anyday. Carrying around some junk cloaks is not always practical for low strength characters like healers because of the dangers of becoming burdened forcing you to make frequent stashes, which is a pain. Unless you want an amulet of life saving, pre-sokoban wishs are better spent on magic resistance, but you are free to make counterarguments to my counterargument.——[[User:Cockatrice corpse\|Cockatrice corpse]] ([[User talk:Cockatrice corpse\|talk]]) 08:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:32, 30 November 2013
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	The major problem with the polymorph trap argument is that stepping onto a polytrap will wreck your good cloak and shirt if you are wear sliver dragon scale mail, requiring a replacement. You can wear junk armour, but that can put you into other danger in a form of hostile monsters. It's not practical to search every square, as its tends to eat up your food supply. ——[[User:Cockatrice corpse\|Cockatrice corpse]] ([[User talk:Cockatrice corpse\|talk]]) 11:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)		The major problem with the polymorph trap argument is that stepping onto a polytrap will wreck your good cloak and shirt if you are wear sliver dragon scale mail, requiring a replacement. You can wear junk armour, but that can put you into other danger in a form of hostile monsters. It's not practical to search every square, as its tends to eat up your food supply. ——[[User:Cockatrice corpse\|Cockatrice corpse]] ([[User talk:Cockatrice corpse\|talk]]) 11:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	: Maybe my playstyle is very different from yours. I usually get an enchanted shirt much later than silver dragon scale mail.
		+	: That leaves the cloak as an argument. The game offers a surprisingly large array of MC2 cloaks in the mines. They are not endgame quality, but they are disposable and still offer the most crucial protection. So you could carry 1-2 spares. I believe the solution is to survive barely until the earliest point when you can get both MR and reflection. So your top priority is to make MR and reflection, rather than the perfect dragon-scales-only outfit. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 10:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:33, 29 November 2013
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	: I've tried to integrate those arguments into the article. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 18:41, October 21, 2010 (UTC)		: I've tried to integrate those arguments into the article. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 18:41, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
		+
		+	The major problem with the polymorph trap argument is that stepping onto a polytrap will wreck your good cloak and shirt if you are wear sliver dragon scale mail, requiring a replacement. You can wear junk armour, but that can put you into other danger in a form of hostile monsters. It's not practical to search every square, as its tends to eat up your food supply. ——[[User:Cockatrice corpse\|Cockatrice corpse]] ([[User talk:Cockatrice corpse\|talk]]) 11:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:41, 21 October 2010
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	*Disintegration instadeath is not prevented, nor are dragons' attacks. These are increasingly common near the lower D and although many of them can be beaten without taking an attack, often they are going to hit you for several tens of points of damage or a shield destruction. Elbereth can be used to deal with them, but then they can fire acid/cold breath at you, and if your character is not strong in melee this could be a losing battle.		*Disintegration instadeath is not prevented, nor are dragons' attacks. These are increasingly common near the lower D and although many of them can be beaten without taking an attack, often they are going to hit you for several tens of points of damage or a shield destruction. Elbereth can be used to deal with them, but then they can fire acid/cold breath at you, and if your character is not strong in melee this could be a losing battle.
	[[User:Casmith\|Casmith]] 12:07, September 21, 2010 (UTC)		[[User:Casmith\|Casmith]] 12:07, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
		+
		+	: I've tried to integrate those arguments into the article. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 18:41, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

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 *With reflection, the only dangerous wand is striking. As this doesn't do much damage (say as much as a normal soldier attack would on -5ac) this is good for doing the castle. The castle is the key area where you get the other one, so although only reflection may be worse in gehennom than only MR you clearly want both, and if you can do the castle safely then you have both, barring an extreme freak accident (trapped explosion on the castle wand chest, glass wand -- it's happened).
 *Disintegration instadeath is not prevented, nor are dragons' attacks. These are increasingly common near the lower D and although many of them can be beaten without taking an attack, often they are going to hit you for several tens of points of damage or a shield destruction. Elbereth can be used to deal with them, but then they can fire acid/cold breath at you, and if your character is not strong in melee this could be a losing battle.
-[[Special:Contributions/92.236.187.64|92.236.187.64]] 12:06, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
+[[User:Casmith|Casmith]] 12:07, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:06, 21 September 2010
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	: Besides, wishing for dragon scale mail is usually a waste of wishes - you can get it ''safely'' from reverse genocide or a throne. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 07:11, September 21, 2010 (UTC)		: Besides, wishing for dragon scale mail is usually a waste of wishes - you can get it ''safely'' from reverse genocide or a throne. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 07:11, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
	:Advice is good only for a specific play style. The OP might want to elaborate in which situations silver dragon scale mail is always better. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 07:59, September 21, 2010 (UTC)		:Advice is good only for a specific play style. The OP might want to elaborate in which situations silver dragon scale mail is always better. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 07:59, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
		+	::I am happy to give some more reasons about how the risks covered by no MR can be minimised while the risks from no reflection are worse, if you'd like? I am of the opinion that reflection is just better pre-castle than MR, because of these reasons:
		+	*Reflection and MR both prevent the obvious instadeath, a wand of death. Neither nullifies poison resistance.
		+	Things such as arch-liches which have the touch of death can be nullified as they only appear at or below the castle. Obviously chameleons and polymorph traps exist, but these are much rarer than wands and will nearly never* instadeath you.
		+	Wands of lightning, fire and cold will* kill you with no save without reflection or the appropriate resistance. These are rare and without excessive scumming (ie pudding farming etc) you probably won't have all of them before D:15 (say). Lightning also has the added bonus of blowing up all your emergency wands (fire etc). I have gone up the stairs and been immediately oneshotted by a wand of lightning before, but not gone down the stairs and been immediately onehotted by an arch-lich attack.
		+	*Polymorph traps make you turn into a silver dragon. This form is not terrible at fighting and so can hold its own until there is a safe spot for you to turn back (this is normally immediate).
		+	*With reflection, the only dangerous wand is striking. As this doesn't do much damage (say as much as a normal soldier attack would on -5ac) this is good for doing the castle. The castle is the key area where you get the other one, so although only reflection may be worse in gehennom than only MR you clearly want both, and if you can do the castle safely then you have both, barring an extreme freak accident (trapped explosion on the castle wand chest, glass wand -- it's happened).
		+	*Disintegration instadeath is not prevented, nor are dragons' attacks. These are increasingly common near the lower D and although many of them can be beaten without taking an attack, often they are going to hit you for several tens of points of damage or a shield destruction. Elbereth can be used to deal with them, but then they can fire acid/cold breath at you, and if your character is not strong in melee this could be a losing battle.
		+	[[Special:Contributions/92.236.187.64\|92.236.187.64]] 12:06, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 ==Stating a preference==
-I personally don't think the new second paragraph should be in the header of the article.  It's still a subjective issue, and it fails to mention some important arguments for GDSM: for example, polytraps destroying cloaks and shirts, either of which could require an extra wish to replace.  Also, for many fighter-type characters, GDSM + shield of reflection is useful as it frees up the cloak slot; oilskin cloaks are nice in that they protect you against instadeath from eels, and keep your stuff from getting wet.  And for pre-Sokoban wishes, there's a 50% chance of SDSM's intrinsic being redundant; I like to maximize my chances of getting both as early as possible.
+I personally don't think the new second paragraph should be in the header of the article. It's still a subjective issue, and it fails to mention some important arguments for GDSM: for example, polytraps destroying cloaks and shirts, either of which could require an extra wish to replace. Also, for many fighter-type characters, GDSM + shield of reflection is useful as it frees up the cloak slot; oilskin cloaks are nice in that they protect you against instadeath from eels, and keep your stuff from getting wet. And for pre-Sokoban wishes, there's a 50% chance of SDSM's intrinsic being redundant; I like to maximize my chances of getting both as early as possible.
-Granted, these are all my opinions, but that's exactly my point; the header shouldn't give what is essentially an opinion.  GDSM is almost always my first wish, unless I'm playing a wizard or happen to find a source of MR before. -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
+Granted, these are all my opinions, but that's exactly my point; the header shouldn't give what is essentially an opinion. GDSM is almost always my first wish, unless I'm playing a wizard or happen to find a source of MR before. -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 : The whole point of this article is to reduce "foo is better" arguments to a discussion of the facts. The opening should not tout an arguable preference. "Get the other one" is good advice and should stay, though.
 : Besides, wishing for dragon scale mail is usually a waste of wishes - you can get it ''safely'' from reverse genocide or a throne. [[User:Tjr|Tjr]] 07:11, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:11, 21 September 2010
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	I personally don't think the new second paragraph should be in the header of the article. It's still a subjective issue, and it fails to mention some important arguments for GDSM: for example, polytraps destroying cloaks and shirts, either of which could require an extra wish to replace. Also, for many fighter-type characters, GDSM + shield of reflection is useful as it frees up the cloak slot; oilskin cloaks are nice in that they protect you against instadeath from eels, and keep your stuff from getting wet. And for pre-Sokoban wishes, there's a 50% chance of SDSM's intrinsic being redundant; I like to maximize my chances of getting both as early as possible.		I personally don't think the new second paragraph should be in the header of the article. It's still a subjective issue, and it fails to mention some important arguments for GDSM: for example, polytraps destroying cloaks and shirts, either of which could require an extra wish to replace. Also, for many fighter-type characters, GDSM + shield of reflection is useful as it frees up the cloak slot; oilskin cloaks are nice in that they protect you against instadeath from eels, and keep your stuff from getting wet. And for pre-Sokoban wishes, there's a 50% chance of SDSM's intrinsic being redundant; I like to maximize my chances of getting both as early as possible.
	Granted, these are all my opinions, but that's exactly my point; the header shouldn't give what is essentially an opinion. GDSM is almost always my first wish, unless I'm playing a wizard or happen to find a source of MR before. -[[User:Ion frigate\|Ion frigate]] 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)		Granted, these are all my opinions, but that's exactly my point; the header shouldn't give what is essentially an opinion. GDSM is almost always my first wish, unless I'm playing a wizard or happen to find a source of MR before. -[[User:Ion frigate\|Ion frigate]] 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
		+	: The whole point of this article is to reduce "foo is better" arguments to a discussion of the facts. The opening should not tout an arguable preference. "Get the other one" is good advice and should stay, though.
		+	: Besides, wishing for dragon scale mail is usually a waste of wishes - you can get it ''safely'' from reverse genocide or a throne. [[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 07:11, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:51, 21 September 2010
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	:The amulet was already mentioned, and I've added an explicit reference to the cloak. If anyone feels qualified to add a SLASH'EM section at the bottom, that would be great. -- [[User:Killian\|Killian]] 13:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)		:The amulet was already mentioned, and I've added an explicit reference to the cloak. If anyone feels qualified to add a SLASH'EM section at the bottom, that would be great. -- [[User:Killian\|Killian]] 13:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	==Stating a preference==
		+	I personally don't think the new second paragraph should be in the header of the article. It's still a subjective issue, and it fails to mention some important arguments for GDSM: for example, polytraps destroying cloaks and shirts, either of which could require an extra wish to replace. Also, for many fighter-type characters, GDSM + shield of reflection is useful as it frees up the cloak slot; oilskin cloaks are nice in that they protect you against instadeath from eels, and keep your stuff from getting wet. And for pre-Sokoban wishes, there's a 50% chance of SDSM's intrinsic being redundant; I like to maximize my chances of getting both as early as possible.
		+	Granted, these are all my opinions, but that's exactly my point; the header shouldn't give what is essentially an opinion. GDSM is almost always my first wish, unless I'm playing a wizard or happen to find a source of MR before. -[[User:Ion frigate\|Ion frigate]] 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:08, 4 April 2009
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	Would it be worth mentioning that both have substitutes in the form of the [[Cloak of magic resistance]] and the [[Amulet of reflection]] and that the Deep and Shimmering (from SLASH'EM) DSM also give useful extrinsics (Displacement and Draining)?... --[[User:Maha Bufu\|Maha Bufu]] 04:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC)		Would it be worth mentioning that both have substitutes in the form of the [[Cloak of magic resistance]] and the [[Amulet of reflection]] and that the Deep and Shimmering (from SLASH'EM) DSM also give useful extrinsics (Displacement and Draining)?... --[[User:Maha Bufu\|Maha Bufu]] 04:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	:The amulet was already mentioned, and I've added an explicit reference to the cloak. If anyone feels qualified to add a SLASH'EM section at the bottom, that would be great. -- [[User:Killian\|Killian]] 13:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)