Talk:Master Kaen - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: clarify

2024-06-21T14:10:28Z

clarify

Umbire the Phantom: :v

2024-06-21T14:09:06Z

Furey: /* Teleport */ reply

2024-06-21T14:03:48Z

‎Teleport: reply

Umbire the Phantom: response

2024-06-21T13:51:57Z

response

Zippy: /* Teleport */ Final response.

2024-06-21T13:40:44Z

‎Teleport: Final response.

Umbire the Phantom: reply + 1

2024-06-12T23:43:26Z

reply + 1

Umbire the Phantom: :v

2024-06-12T23:33:09Z

Zippy: /* Teleport */ programmer vs. player reference

2024-06-12T23:29:10Z

‎Teleport: programmer vs. player reference

Umbire the Phantom: reply

2024-06-12T18:27:01Z

Zippy: /* Teleport */ Suggestion to split covetous into Thief and Warp-Attack.

2024-06-12T18:24:29Z

‎Teleport: Suggestion to split covetous into Thief and Warp-Attack.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:10, 21 June 2024
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	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 14:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)		[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 14:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

−	:I don't disagree that this is going a bit beyond scope and that things like info organization can be better addressed on, say, the talk page for the Style Guide, but I also don't think the discussion is "out of control" otherwise - my admin hat's been off this entire exchange, and I doubt it needs to be put on. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 14:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)	+	:I don't disagree that this is going a bit beyond scope and that things like info organization can be better addressed on, say, the talk page for the Style Guide, but I also don't think the discussion is "out of control" otherwise - my admin hat's been off this entire exchange, and I doubt it needs to be put on (which is to say, just try to keep it civil). --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 14:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:09, 21 June 2024
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	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 14:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)		[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 14:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	:I don't disagree that this is going a bit beyond scope and that things like info organization can be better addressed on, say, the talk page for the Style Guide, but I also don't think the discussion is "out of control" otherwise - my admin hat's been off this entire exchange, and I doubt it needs to be put on. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 14:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:03, 21 June 2024
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	:::Again: Theft and warping are both covered by the covetous article. And to clarify this "warp attack" deal: all monsters can move and attack in the same turn, not even just covetous ones. It's a fairly known quirk of NetHack that if anything should probably be covered on articles like [[speed]] that deal with monster movement (which I'm currently renovating right now, incidentally). The most that could be said for Master Kaen is that it's particularly deadly in his case, which is fine to note in the strategy section. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 13:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)		:::Again: Theft and warping are both covered by the covetous article. And to clarify this "warp attack" deal: all monsters can move and attack in the same turn, not even just covetous ones. It's a fairly known quirk of NetHack that if anything should probably be covered on articles like [[speed]] that deal with monster movement (which I'm currently renovating right now, incidentally). The most that could be said for Master Kaen is that it's particularly deadly in his case, which is fine to note in the strategy section. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 13:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	Just confirming. "thief" is not enabled by the covetous monster field, so adding text to "thief", "warp attack", or "covetous" to that effect would be incorrect. Demon lords, for example, are covetous, but do not have a thief attack.
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		+	I see that Umbire is planning to handle the move/attack documentation.
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		+	Also this discussion has wandered quite far from the specific topic of Master Kaen. https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Forum:Watercooler is a better place for discussions about the general organization of NetHackWiki.
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		+	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 14:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:51, 21 June 2024
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	:::::Just confirming: did you read every page to verify that a sword is still a sword, an axe is still an axe, and etc.? Or did you think, "Ok, swords are available as weapons, and I know what a sword is, so I don't need to spend time reading that page."? Even better, are you able to look at the wiki's access stats, to see how many unique IP addresses load every available page as new players read everything before playing? You are correct that the wiki could be both a programmer's reference and a player's reference. However, since there will be many more players than programmers, the focus should be on the player. To that end, the wiki could still list Master Kaen as having the "thief" and "warp attack" behaviors, but on those associated pages, note that those behaviors are enabled by the covetous monster field.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 13:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)		:::::Just confirming: did you read every page to verify that a sword is still a sword, an axe is still an axe, and etc.? Or did you think, "Ok, swords are available as weapons, and I know what a sword is, so I don't need to spend time reading that page."? Even better, are you able to look at the wiki's access stats, to see how many unique IP addresses load every available page as new players read everything before playing? You are correct that the wiki could be both a programmer's reference and a player's reference. However, since there will be many more players than programmers, the focus should be on the player. To that end, the wiki could still list Master Kaen as having the "thief" and "warp attack" behaviors, but on those associated pages, note that those behaviors are enabled by the covetous monster field.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 13:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	::::The former, easily.
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		+	:::Again: Theft and warping are both covered by the covetous article. And to clarify this "warp attack" deal: all monsters can move and attack in the same turn, not even just covetous ones. It's a fairly known quirk of NetHack that if anything should probably be covered on articles like [[speed]] that deal with monster movement (which I'm currently renovating right now, incidentally). The most that could be said for Master Kaen is that it's particularly deadly in his case, which is fine to note in the strategy section. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 13:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:40, 21 June 2024
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	::::Also, the idea of "a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference" is a false dichotomy that assumes the two are mutually exclusive, as opposed to how it plays out in reality where developers for NetHack and its variants very often play each others' games as well as their own. Considering there's also partially-annotated source code hosted on here (because this is very much open source), there's no real reason it needs to be either/or. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		::::Also, the idea of "a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference" is a false dichotomy that assumes the two are mutually exclusive, as opposed to how it plays out in reality where developers for NetHack and its variants very often play each others' games as well as their own. Considering there's also partially-annotated source code hosted on here (because this is very much open source), there's no real reason it needs to be either/or. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	:::::Just confirming: did you read every page to verify that a sword is still a sword, an axe is still an axe, and etc.? Or did you think, "Ok, swords are available as weapons, and I know what a sword is, so I don't need to spend time reading that page."? Even better, are you able to look at the wiki's access stats, to see how many unique IP addresses load every available page as new players read everything before playing? You are correct that the wiki could be both a programmer's reference and a player's reference. However, since there will be many more players than programmers, the focus should be on the player. To that end, the wiki could still list Master Kaen as having the "thief" and "warp attack" behaviors, but on those associated pages, note that those behaviors are enabled by the covetous monster field.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 13:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:43, 12 June 2024
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	::::...which is why the link is provided in the first place. I really don't think the wiki should have to account for a hypothetical reader's worst habits. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		::::...which is why the link is provided in the first place. I really don't think the wiki should have to account for a hypothetical reader's worst habits. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	::::Also, the idea of "a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference" is a false dichotomy that assumes the two are mutually exclusive, as opposed to how it plays out in reality where developers for NetHack and its variants very often play each others' games as well as their own. Considering there's also partially-annotated source code hosted on here (because this is very much open source), there's no real reason it needs to be either/or. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:33, 12 June 2024
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	:::::Depends on whether you want this site to be a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference. A programmer needs to know that NetHack uses "covetous" to indicate this behavior. A player sees "covetous" on this page and says, "so what? Covetous literally just means they want something." The player reads further and sees that Kaen will take the artifact. The player now knows what Kaen wants, so doesn't see a reason to click the Covetous link, and thus won't learn that the Programmer massively changed the meaning of the word "covetous". --[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 23:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		:::::Depends on whether you want this site to be a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference. A programmer needs to know that NetHack uses "covetous" to indicate this behavior. A player sees "covetous" on this page and says, "so what? Covetous literally just means they want something." The player reads further and sees that Kaen will take the artifact. The player now knows what Kaen wants, so doesn't see a reason to click the Covetous link, and thus won't learn that the Programmer massively changed the meaning of the word "covetous". --[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 23:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	::::...which is why the link is provided in the first place. I really don't think the wiki should have to account for a hypothetical reader's worst habits. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:29, 12 June 2024
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	::::No, because covetous is a very specific monster attribute that ''both'' confers warping abilities and describes what important artifact they want from the hero. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 18:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		::::No, because covetous is a very specific monster attribute that ''both'' confers warping abilities and describes what important artifact they want from the hero. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 18:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	:::::Depends on whether you want this site to be a NetHack Programmer's Reference, or a Player's Reference. A programmer needs to know that NetHack uses "covetous" to indicate this behavior. A player sees "covetous" on this page and says, "so what? Covetous literally just means they want something." The player reads further and sees that Kaen will take the artifact. The player now knows what Kaen wants, so doesn't see a reason to click the Covetous link, and thus won't learn that the Programmer massively changed the meaning of the word "covetous". --[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 23:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:27, 12 June 2024
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	:::Actually, should covetous be broken into two attributes, thief and warp-attack? Thief for those creatures that steal from you: nymph, leprechaun, Master Kaen, and etc. Warp-attack for those that warp & attack: arch-lich, Master Kaen, and etc. "Covetous" just implies they want something from you, and since most monsters want your life, really applies to any creature encountered in the game.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		:::Actually, should covetous be broken into two attributes, thief and warp-attack? Thief for those creatures that steal from you: nymph, leprechaun, Master Kaen, and etc. Warp-attack for those that warp & attack: arch-lich, Master Kaen, and etc. "Covetous" just implies they want something from you, and since most monsters want your life, really applies to any creature encountered in the game.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	::::No, because covetous is a very specific monster attribute that ''both'' confers warping abilities and describes what important artifact they want from the hero. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 18:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 12 June 2024
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	:::I have a note to look into it when I visit [[covetous]], but that is going to take a long time. It would help if Vulture's Eye would upgrade from NetHack 3.4.3 to NetHack 3.6.7 or any NetHack 3.6. NetHack 3.6.0 came out in December 2015 with a lot of changes and bug fixes, including some changes in the speed system. For now, I think you're stuck with a very strong Master Kaen. I usually fight him with a boulder fort, a cursed potion of invisibility, and then throw dozens of darts through the boulders. [[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)		:::I have a note to look into it when I visit [[covetous]], but that is going to take a long time. It would help if Vulture's Eye would upgrade from NetHack 3.4.3 to NetHack 3.6.7 or any NetHack 3.6. NetHack 3.6.0 came out in December 2015 with a lot of changes and bug fixes, including some changes in the speed system. For now, I think you're stuck with a very strong Master Kaen. I usually fight him with a boulder fort, a cursed potion of invisibility, and then throw dozens of darts through the boulders. [[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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		+	:::Actually, should covetous be broken into two attributes, thief and warp-attack? Thief for those creatures that steal from you: nymph, leprechaun, Master Kaen, and etc. Warp-attack for those that warp & attack: arch-lich, Master Kaen, and etc. "Covetous" just implies they want something from you, and since most monsters want your life, really applies to any creature encountered in the game.--[[User:Zippy\|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy\|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)