Talk:Potion of holy water - Revision history

Tjr at 19:59, 27 March 2013

2013-03-27T19:59:39Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:59, 27 March 2013
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	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. So I did miss something. Added it the article in case I'm not the only one. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. So I did miss something. Added it the article in case I'm not the only one. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
			::::: You're welcome. :-) I'm glad you clarified things. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 19:59, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Water prayer==		==Water prayer==

Xoxb: /* Polypiling */

2013-03-27T12:49:28Z

Polypiling

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:49, 27 March 2013
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	:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.		:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. Added to the article. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. So I did miss something. Added it the article in case I'm not the only one. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Water prayer==		==Water prayer==

Xoxb: /* Polypiling */

2013-03-27T12:40:39Z

Polypiling

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:40, 27 March 2013
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	:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.		:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. Added to the article. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Water prayer==		==Water prayer==

Xoxb: /* Polypiling */

2013-03-27T12:37:00Z

Polypiling

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:37, 27 March 2013
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	:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.		:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one ~~that~~ I ~~hadn~~'t ~~thought~~ of. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one and I didn't think of it. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Water prayer==		==Water prayer==

Xoxb: /* Polypiling */

2013-03-27T12:36:06Z

Polypiling

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:36, 27 March 2013
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	:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.		:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
			:::: Okay, the stack counting method is a good one that I hadn't thought of. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 12:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Water prayer==		==Water prayer==

Tjr: /* Polypiling */

2013-03-27T08:02:47Z

Polypiling

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:02, 27 March 2013
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	:::3) Optionally rule out potions of polymorph by dipping a wand of polymorph into each type.		:::3) Optionally rule out potions of polymorph by dipping a wand of polymorph into each type.
	:::4) Actual polypiling is done with a wand. Of course, you wait until you have enough other items to polypile along. Of course you max out your [[Luck]]. Of course, you collect lots of individually named rocks and put them at the bottom (top?), so that you get a clay golem instead of a golem made of potions. Of course you name your potions individually.		:::4) Actual polypiling is done with a wand. Of course, you wait until you have enough other items to polypile along. Of course you max out your [[Luck]]. Of course, you collect lots of individually named rocks and put them at the bottom (top?), so that you get a clay golem instead of a golem made of potions. Of course you name your potions individually.
	:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. ~~Only~~ uncursed water will wet it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.		:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. You will not use up a potion, and only uncursed water will "wet" it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
	:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Tjr: how to polypile for holy water, and why the facts should stay

2013-03-27T08:01:56Z

how to polypile for holy water, and why the facts should stay

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:01, 27 March 2013
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	There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at cost of 1/2 potion per stack) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		:Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at cost of 1/2 potion per stack) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	** I was talking about BUC-identifying the polyfodder potions, not water. You need to identify blessed polyfodder to reasonably polypile for HW. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 06:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)		::I was talking about BUC-identifying the polyfodder potions, not water. You need to identify blessed polyfodder to reasonably polypile for HW. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 06:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	----
			:::'''Strategy''' advice for the sake of argument. This is how it's possible without breaking atheist nor illiterate nor wishing nor pacifist. It is based upon a potions-driven all-conducts attempt.
			:::1) Firstly, it's a bad idea to polypile irreplacable potions. So you're essentially down to [[monster starting inventory]]. Learn to kill monsters quickly!
			:::2) Next is BUC identification. This is mostly about resource conservation, since holy water is trivial to tell apart (see below). Once you're reasonably near the point where you can polypile, you'll have three stacks of each type of potion. Pets will rule out the cursed stack. Uncursed is six times more likely than blessed. So when you have a two stacks, one of 3 extra healing and another 18 extra healing, it's not hard to guess which is blessed. If you do insist on BUC testing, you could turn the larger stack into "diluted potions named extra healing" at a pool/moat and try to stack it with alchemy products. (Alchemy never makes blessed potions.) You're going to make (blessed) full healing, anyway, so this doesn't cost you much. Or just drink one from the larger stack.
			:::3) Optionally rule out potions of polymorph by dipping a wand of polymorph into each type.
			:::4) Actual polypiling is done with a wand. Of course, you wait until you have enough other items to polypile along. Of course you max out your [[Luck]]. Of course, you collect lots of individually named rocks and put them at the bottom (top?), so that you get a clay golem instead of a golem made of potions. Of course you name your potions individually.
			:::5) Water is trivial to BUC-identify. Pet-test to rule out unholy water. Or curse another freshly watered potion at a fountain, and then try to stack it to rule out unholy water. Next, you dip a known-blessed, non-erodable item into the blessed-or-uncursed water. I suggest your wizard's starting quarterstaff. Only uncursed water will wet it. Or just dip the larger stack of water into the smaller one, in case you have the luxury.
			:::Back to wiki editing. Most games will break several conducts, and thus have several options. It's good to know which you have, in case you need to be creative. This is a '''facts section'''. We should not patronize players by suppressing facts based on our own, different play-style. Especially in an exhaustive list. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] ([[User talk:Tjr\|talk]]) 08:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

			==Water prayer==

	Water prayers are not affected by the BUC status of the potions that are on the altar. You can put any number of potions of unholy water on a coaligned altar and pray to convert them to holy water. So I don't see why the article suggests avoiding cursed potions of water in water prayers. Comments? [[User:Djao\|Djao]] 05:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)		Water prayers are not affected by the BUC status of the potions that are on the altar. You can put any number of potions of unholy water on a coaligned altar and pray to convert them to holy water. So I don't see why the article suggests avoiding cursed potions of water in water prayers. Comments? [[User:Djao\|Djao]] 05:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Xoxb at 06:08, 27 March 2013

2013-03-27T06:08:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:08, 27 March 2013
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	There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at cost of 1/2 potion per stack) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at cost of 1/2 potion per stack) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
			** I was talking about BUC-identifying the polyfodder potions, not water. You need to identify blessed polyfodder to reasonably polypile for HW. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 06:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
	----		----

Bulwersator: /* Polypiling */ ops, probability failure

2013-03-26T21:09:03Z

Polypiling: ops, probability failure

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:09, 26 March 2013
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	There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at no cost) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at cost of 1/2 potion per stack) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	----		----

Bulwersator: /* Polypiling */ by dipping

2013-03-26T21:06:05Z

Polypiling: by dipping

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:06, 26 March 2013
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	There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		There's no way to reasonably polypile for holy water without also breaking either atheist or illiterate, because to distinguish blessed potions from uncursed ones, you need to use an altar or an identify spell/scroll. Sure, you could just polypile loads of potions of unknown BU status, but that would be a big waste of polymorph charges (and if you're usibng the spell of polymorph, you'd have to break illiterate, of course). So the polypile section in "conduct considerations" seems to be wrong, but I'm not changing it outright because maybe I'm missing something. [[User:Xoxb\|Xoxb]] ([[User talk:Xoxb\|talk]]) 19:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at no cost) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		*Water is stacking, so you may identify entire stack by dipping at cost of no more than single potion (with known cursed/uncursed/blessed objects - at no cost) [[User:Bulwersator\|Bulwersator]] ([[User talk:Bulwersator\|talk]]) 21:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	----		----