Talk:Price identification - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: reply

2022-08-22T00:40:01Z

Bruceleroy99: .

2022-08-22T00:20:45Z

Umbire the Phantom: :/

2022-08-21T23:40:02Z

Bruceleroy99: .

2022-08-21T23:36:53Z

Umbire the Phantom: reply

2022-08-21T23:16:44Z

Bruceleroy99: .

2022-08-21T19:11:52Z

Umbire the Phantom: /* Regarding the recent table edits */ reply

2022-08-15T23:35:23Z

‎Regarding the recent table edits: reply

Phol ende wodan: /* Regarding the recent table edits */ If there's a vote, it's many against one; plan is to restore the price ID tables.

2022-08-15T23:33:55Z

‎Regarding the recent table edits: If there's a vote, it's many against one; plan is to restore the price ID tables.

Ashen: another opinion on recent table edits

2022-08-14T19:09:52Z

another opinion on recent table edits

Bruceleroy99: table edits - moving forward

2022-08-11T23:34:57Z

table edits - moving forward

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:40, 22 August 2022
Line 103:		Line 103:
	:::::This is a completely unnecessary tantrum, especially considering we're willing to actually iterate the changes in question and similarly large changes have gone through ''without'' complaint (due both to prior discussion and avoidance of information loss), but if you insist... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)		:::::This is a completely unnecessary tantrum, especially considering we're willing to actually iterate the changes in question and similarly large changes have gone through ''without'' complaint (due both to prior discussion and avoidance of information loss), but if you insist... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
	::::::The fact that you're calling this a tantrum speaks volumes - yes please do. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)		::::::The fact that you're calling this a tantrum speaks volumes - yes please do. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
		+	:::::What else am I supposed to call the fact that we've stated a willingness to accommodate the information but take issue with how it was integrated, only to have that statement treated as though we want know changes at all? --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 00:40, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:20, 22 August 2022
Line 102:		Line 102:
	::::Right - of new players that would be decidedly the most impacted. It's a pretty big stretch to say something doesn't work when people freak out over more than a single line of change - and when admins are heavy handed and block any progress whatsoever any change is doomed to fail. I regret trying to help - clearly people are happier being stuck in their ways instead of exploring ways to make things better. You all can delete my account - I now have 0 desire to play this game again now, let alone put any more effort in on the wiki here. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 23:36, 21 August 2022 (UTC)		::::Right - of new players that would be decidedly the most impacted. It's a pretty big stretch to say something doesn't work when people freak out over more than a single line of change - and when admins are heavy handed and block any progress whatsoever any change is doomed to fail. I regret trying to help - clearly people are happier being stuck in their ways instead of exploring ways to make things better. You all can delete my account - I now have 0 desire to play this game again now, let alone put any more effort in on the wiki here. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 23:36, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
	:::::This is a completely unnecessary tantrum, especially considering we're willing to actually iterate the changes in question and similarly large changes have gone through ''without'' complaint (due both to prior discussion and avoidance of information loss), but if you insist... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)		:::::This is a completely unnecessary tantrum, especially considering we're willing to actually iterate the changes in question and similarly large changes have gone through ''without'' complaint (due both to prior discussion and avoidance of information loss), but if you insist... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
		+	::::::The fact that you're calling this a tantrum speaks volumes - yes please do. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 00:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 97: / Line 97: @@
 : Okay, the community's opinion has been getting clearer and clearer by the day (especially on IRC). When it comes down to it, the only person defending the current makeup of the price ID page is bruceleroy99, and I'm hard pressed to answer why we've been letting the page stand as-is when most aren't seeing it as "improved". Therefore, given the increasing amount of people asking where their price ID tables went, I plan to roll back the changes to the last time they contained those tables. We can iterate from there. --[[User:Phol ende wodan|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan|talk]]) 23:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::Well I'm glad yall didn't decide on the "my way or the highway" approach - nothing says democracy like using an unquantifiable group to back your opinion. --[[User:Bruceleroy99|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99|talk]]) 19:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 :::...A group including people that were actively making accounts on here ''just'' to complain about this. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::::Right - of new players that would be decidedly the most impacted. It's a pretty big stretch to say something doesn't work when people freak out over more than a single line of change - and when admins are heavy handed and block any progress whatsoever any change is doomed to fail. I regret trying to help - clearly people are happier being stuck in their ways instead of exploring ways to make things better. You all can delete my account - I now have 0 desire to play this game again now, let alone put any more effort in on the wiki here. --[[User:Bruceleroy99|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99|talk]]) 23:36, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
-::I'd been hoping we could reach a compromise, given it's not like the edits were entirely """useless""" or detrimental, but... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
+:::::This is a completely unnecessary tantrum, especially considering we're willing to actually iterate the changes in question and similarly large changes have gone through ''without'' complaint (due both to prior discussion and avoidance of information loss), but if you insist... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 99: / Line 99: @@
 ::Well I'm glad yall didn't decide on the "my way or the highway" approach - nothing says democracy like using an unquantifiable group to back your opinion. --[[User:Bruceleroy99|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99|talk]]) 19:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 :::...A group including people that were actively making accounts on here ''just'' to complain about this. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::I'd been hoping we could reach a compromise, given it's not like the edits were entirely """useless""" or detrimental, but... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 : Okay, the community's opinion has been getting clearer and clearer by the day (especially on IRC). When it comes down to it, the only person defending the current makeup of the price ID page is bruceleroy99, and I'm hard pressed to answer why we've been letting the page stand as-is when most aren't seeing it as "improved". Therefore, given the increasing amount of people asking where their price ID tables went, I plan to roll back the changes to the last time they contained those tables. We can iterate from there. --[[User:Phol ende wodan|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan|talk]]) 23:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::Well I'm glad yall didn't decide on the "my way or the highway" approach - nothing says democracy like using an unquantifiable group to back your opinion. --[[User:Bruceleroy99|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99|talk]]) 19:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::I'd been hoping we could reach a compromise, given it's not like the edits were entirely """useless""" or detrimental, but... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 23:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:35, 15 August 2022
Line 97:		Line 97:

	: Okay, the community's opinion has been getting clearer and clearer by the day (especially on IRC). When it comes down to it, the only person defending the current makeup of the price ID page is bruceleroy99, and I'm hard pressed to answer why we've been letting the page stand as-is when most aren't seeing it as "improved". Therefore, given the increasing amount of people asking where their price ID tables went, I plan to roll back the changes to the last time they contained those tables. We can iterate from there. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 23:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)		: Okay, the community's opinion has been getting clearer and clearer by the day (especially on IRC). When it comes down to it, the only person defending the current makeup of the price ID page is bruceleroy99, and I'm hard pressed to answer why we've been letting the page stand as-is when most aren't seeing it as "improved". Therefore, given the increasing amount of people asking where their price ID tables went, I plan to roll back the changes to the last time they contained those tables. We can iterate from there. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 23:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	::I'd been hoping we could reach a compromise, given it's not like the edits were entirely """useless""" or detrimental, but... --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 23:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:33, 15 August 2022
Line 95:		Line 95:

	: I, too, created an account just to comment on this. I also found the old tables straightforward to use, and the new tables rather useless. I've never had to GAF about base prices. The page is titled Price Identification, not How Pricing Works. Now I guess I'm expected to memorize what base prices correspond to what items. ISTM the editor expects or can only imagine playing the way he plays. Personally, I use the offered buy/sell price of an item to name that item all of the things it could be and revise as other items are definitively identified (process of elimination). With the old tables, that just requires looking up the price directly in the per-item-type table. Now I have to figure out what that offered buy/sell price means the base price is with one table, and then go find that base price in another table. It's more work. Can we not have -both- a table that explains how base/offer pricing works as per edits -and- simple direct actual-price-to-item lookup tables as per before? --[[User:Ashen\|Ashen]] ([[User talk:Ashen\|talk]]) 19:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)		: I, too, created an account just to comment on this. I also found the old tables straightforward to use, and the new tables rather useless. I've never had to GAF about base prices. The page is titled Price Identification, not How Pricing Works. Now I guess I'm expected to memorize what base prices correspond to what items. ISTM the editor expects or can only imagine playing the way he plays. Personally, I use the offered buy/sell price of an item to name that item all of the things it could be and revise as other items are definitively identified (process of elimination). With the old tables, that just requires looking up the price directly in the per-item-type table. Now I have to figure out what that offered buy/sell price means the base price is with one table, and then go find that base price in another table. It's more work. Can we not have -both- a table that explains how base/offer pricing works as per edits -and- simple direct actual-price-to-item lookup tables as per before? --[[User:Ashen\|Ashen]] ([[User talk:Ashen\|talk]]) 19:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	: Okay, the community's opinion has been getting clearer and clearer by the day (especially on IRC). When it comes down to it, the only person defending the current makeup of the price ID page is bruceleroy99, and I'm hard pressed to answer why we've been letting the page stand as-is when most aren't seeing it as "improved". Therefore, given the increasing amount of people asking where their price ID tables went, I plan to roll back the changes to the last time they contained those tables. We can iterate from there. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 23:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:09, 14 August 2022
Line 93:		Line 93:
	: With regards to the tables, I agree with Phol's suggestion to put them all in subpages. That way players who prefer to calculate the possibilities themselves see a concise, readable page explaining how to do so, while those who'd rather just look up the answers have the information they need a click away. Ultimately, though, I think the best option is to import one of the existing tools into the wiki if possible. If the wiki doesn't support them, maybe Paxed could put one up on alt.org? --[[User:Darth l33t\|Darth l33t]] ([[User talk:Darth l33t\|talk]]) 14:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)		: With regards to the tables, I agree with Phol's suggestion to put them all in subpages. That way players who prefer to calculate the possibilities themselves see a concise, readable page explaining how to do so, while those who'd rather just look up the answers have the information they need a click away. Ultimately, though, I think the best option is to import one of the existing tools into the wiki if possible. If the wiki doesn't support them, maybe Paxed could put one up on alt.org? --[[User:Darth l33t\|Darth l33t]] ([[User talk:Darth l33t\|talk]]) 14:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
	:: Oops didn't see this before I responded - there is definitely a difference between the '''strategy''' of price ID and the actual price tables themselves (which is part of the goal that I was trying to achieve with my changes - different variants / versions have additional complications that make embedding tables fairly complicated). I'm happy to take a stab at all of that if that's cool with everyone. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 14:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)		:: Oops didn't see this before I responded - there is definitely a difference between the '''strategy''' of price ID and the actual price tables themselves (which is part of the goal that I was trying to achieve with my changes - different variants / versions have additional complications that make embedding tables fairly complicated). I'm happy to take a stab at all of that if that's cool with everyone. --[[User:Bruceleroy99\|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99\|talk]]) 14:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	: I, too, created an account just to comment on this. I also found the old tables straightforward to use, and the new tables rather useless. I've never had to GAF about base prices. The page is titled Price Identification, not How Pricing Works. Now I guess I'm expected to memorize what base prices correspond to what items. ISTM the editor expects or can only imagine playing the way he plays. Personally, I use the offered buy/sell price of an item to name that item all of the things it could be and revise as other items are definitively identified (process of elimination). With the old tables, that just requires looking up the price directly in the per-item-type table. Now I have to figure out what that offered buy/sell price means the base price is with one table, and then go find that base price in another table. It's more work. Can we not have -both- a table that explains how base/offer pricing works as per edits -and- simple direct actual-price-to-item lookup tables as per before? --[[User:Ashen\|Ashen]] ([[User talk:Ashen\|talk]]) 19:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 84: / Line 84: @@
 :::: re: talk first you are 100% right in that regard - I did not realize this had a talk page (and still don't see how to access it via the page itself lol). Also agree that the tables themselves were (and are still!) extremely cumbersome - back when they were first implemented you could see them all on one screen so it wasn't as bad. There's still improvements to be made so hopefully with more eyes on it we can continue to improve it instead of leaving things as it was - e.g. any mention of specific prices should be on a separate page. This page should strictly discuss strategies and be completely price agnostic IMO. --[[User:Bruceleroy99|Bruceleroy99]] ([[User talk:Bruceleroy99|talk]]) 16:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::::: Well, I still think that the older tables were quite straightforward to use: you want to identify a scroll, go to the scroll table, go to the column for your charisma, figure out the possible rows, and you get the possible items. And I'm not alone: at least one other user thinks it was simple enough to use the old tables. The new ones still need cross-referencing whenever you want to use them (unless you know stuff by heart... but then you'd not need the tables in the first place). I won't edit the page anymore... I think pointing out the problem was enough. I can still use the old versions by opening the edit history and clicking on the correct version. People with more time and will to help new people by keeping an usable version of the tables might want to revert/edit the page further. --[[User:Leniad|Leniad]] ([[User talk:Leniad|talk]]) 19:40, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 :::...there's a giant Discussion tab right next to Page on the top left side that should be readily visible when you edit. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 02:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)