Talk:Riders - Revision history

Actual-nh: Undo revision 140067 by Actual-nh (talk) - notification received

2021-05-20T17:15:13Z

Undo revision 140067 by Actual-nh (talk) - notification received

Actual-nh: /* Umbire - see Talk:Touch of death */ new section

2021-05-20T16:50:57Z

‎Umbire - see Talk:Touch of death: new section

Actual-nh: /* Why */ Done via table of contents

2021-02-13T16:50:31Z

‎Why: Done via table of contents

Umbire the Phantom: /* Why */

2021-02-05T04:24:28Z

‎Why

Actual-nh: /* Why */ Do via table of contents?

2021-02-05T03:23:03Z

‎Why: Do via table of contents?

Thidwick: In defense of "The Fourth Horseman is War."

2021-02-05T03:04:24Z

In defense of "The Fourth Horseman is War."

Phol ende wodan: /* Why */ I concur

2021-02-01T11:56:44Z

‎Why: I concur

Testbutt: /* Why */ new section

2021-02-01T05:12:08Z

‎Why: new section

Furey: /* Rider vs steed: no damage? */

2019-05-28T02:28:21Z

‎Rider vs steed: no damage?

Furey: /* Rider vs steed: no damage? */ new section

2019-05-28T02:27:39Z

‎Rider vs steed: no damage?: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:15, 20 May 2021
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	:::Nobody objected, so done. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)		:::Nobody objected, so done. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
−
−	~~== Umbire - see Talk:Touch of death ==~~
−
−	~~Please take a look at the [[Talk:Touch of death]] page edit. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)~~

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:50, 20 May 2021
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	:::Nobody objected, so done. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)		:::Nobody objected, so done. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Umbire - see Talk:Touch of death ==
		+
		+	Please take a look at the [[Talk:Touch of death]] page edit. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:50, 13 February 2021
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	::Inclined to agree. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 04:24, 5 February 2021 (UTC)		::Inclined to agree. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 04:24, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:::Nobody objected, so done. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 16:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:24, 5 February 2021
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	:: How about making the 3 Riders + War subsections of a section called "The Four Horsemen"? It's more subtle than directly stating it in a sentence. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 03:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)		:: How about making the 3 Riders + War subsections of a section called "The Four Horsemen"? It's more subtle than directly stating it in a sentence. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 03:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	::Inclined to agree. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 04:24, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:23, 5 February 2021
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	:		:
	:Summary: '''Make it clear that "War" is the name of the Fourth Horseman''', then decide how in-your-face to be about revealing that it's the player...and whether there's a certain point at which player becomes the incarnation of War (i.e. upon gaining the AoY or entering the Astral Plane).--[[User:Thidwick\|Thidwick]] ([[User talk:Thidwick\|talk]]) 03:04, 5 February 2021 (UTC)		:Summary: '''Make it clear that "War" is the name of the Fourth Horseman''', then decide how in-your-face to be about revealing that it's the player...and whether there's a certain point at which player becomes the incarnation of War (i.e. upon gaining the AoY or entering the Astral Plane).--[[User:Thidwick\|Thidwick]] ([[User talk:Thidwick\|talk]]) 03:04, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:: How about making the 3 Riders + War subsections of a section called "The Four Horsemen"? It's more subtle than directly stating it in a sentence. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 03:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:04, 5 February 2021
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	Why would you add a whole 'nother sentence to the page, that just reiterates existing information and, when clicked, simply causes the reader to scroll down? [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]])		Why would you add a whole 'nother sentence to the page, that just reiterates existing information and, when clicked, simply causes the reader to scroll down? [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]])
	: For posterity, this is referring to the sentence "The [[Fourth Horseman]] is War." in the top section of the page. Three other people have disagreed with adding it, for various reasons; my personal disagreement is that I think it's a cool little secret in the game and this is a little too in-your-face about revealing it. Though I also agree with Testbutt. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 11:56, 1 February 2021 (UTC)		: For posterity, this is referring to the sentence "The [[Fourth Horseman]] is War." in the top section of the page. Three other people have disagreed with adding it, for various reasons; my personal disagreement is that I think it's a cool little secret in the game and this is a little too in-your-face about revealing it. Though I also agree with Testbutt. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 11:56, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:Yes, no one wants to spoil it. '''Here's my TLDR: Keep the phrase "The Fourth Horseman is War" as it ''sets up'' the secret. Remove the section on War which explains "You are war."--which blatantly gives it away.'''
		+	:
		+	:Details of why I added the sentence: 1. There is no cultural consensus on the "names" of the Four Horsemen--or that there are only four. Read the Apocalypse (Revelation); you'll see what I mean. Nethack implements a unique version of the story, so no one is wondering "That's three horsemen, but where is War?" Only the source code states that "War" is the fourth "Rider". 2. The term "Rider" itself is also peculiar to NetHack; by the time someone knows the term, they've probably been playing for years as it only appears in the source code. 3. No one necessarily would assume that the three named demons on the astral plane are the related to the Four Horsemen or connect that to the term "Rider" without extra knowledge from the source code, the NH community members, or the wiki.
		+	:
		+	:Based on these factors, someone reading the T-shirt that says "...I'm War", or tinning a Rider "War does not preserve it's enemies", or getting a Rider's ambiguous response "Who do you think you are, War?" (Which almost seems to say you are NOT War), won't get the joke. Furthermore, 0.0001% of players will ever accidentally generate those messages let alone consider them meaningful without more context. So, it is not clear in the game and there is no big in-game reveal to spoil. I only learned the term Rider, and the idea War=player after playing for 20 years from a spoiler.
		+	:
		+	:Summary: '''Make it clear that "War" is the name of the Fourth Horseman''', then decide how in-your-face to be about revealing that it's the player...and whether there's a certain point at which player becomes the incarnation of War (i.e. upon gaining the AoY or entering the Astral Plane).--[[User:Thidwick\|Thidwick]] ([[User talk:Thidwick\|talk]]) 03:04, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:56, 1 February 2021
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	Why would you add a whole 'nother sentence to the page, that just reiterates existing information and, when clicked, simply causes the reader to scroll down? [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]])		Why would you add a whole 'nother sentence to the page, that just reiterates existing information and, when clicked, simply causes the reader to scroll down? [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]])
		+	: For posterity, this is referring to the sentence "The [[Fourth Horseman]] is War." in the top section of the page. Three other people have disagreed with adding it, for various reasons; my personal disagreement is that I think it's a cool little secret in the game and this is a little too in-your-face about revealing it. Though I also agree with Testbutt. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 11:56, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:12, 1 February 2021
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	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 02:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)		[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 02:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Why ==
		+
		+	Why would you add a whole 'nother sentence to the page, that just reiterates existing information and, when clicked, simply causes the reader to scroll down? [[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]])

@@ Line 135: / Line 135: @@
 I verified this in wizard mode with a Jabberwock steed and again with a pet Archon (created from a figurine and allowed to pick up 10 blessed potions of gain level).
-Similar code still in 3.6.1 source. I don't actually plan 3.6.1 so I did not test that in wizard mode, though.
+Similar code still in 3.6.1 source. I don't actually play 3.6.1 so I did not test that in wizard mode, though.
 I don't know if making Riders harmless to other monsters is intentional.
@@ Line 141: / Line 141: @@
 Changing this behavior would likely make astral plane even harder for characters with steeds or pacifist characters.
-[[User:Furey|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey|talk]]) 02:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
+[[User:Furey|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey|talk]]) 02:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:27, 28 May 2019
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	== Displacement ==		== Displacement ==
	A lot of strategy on this page needs to be redone. Monsters can't block the riders from getting to you anymore (tame, peaceful, or hostile, it doesn't matter), so things like jelly forts, taming lots of monsters, acid blob spam (No idea if this can stop their revival or not) etc aren't usable strategies anymore. Boulders will block the riders, and they use doors normally. I don't know of any other methods of blocking them. I don't think displacement slows them down any, but I'm not certain. I think it functions just like normal movement, and works 100% of the time (unlike players displacing pets). As an aside, there is code to allow tame monsters to displace others, as far as I can tell, but it doesn't actually work, and a tame rider won't ever try to displace a monster. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] ([[User talk:Qazmlpok\|talk]]) 03:01, 22 December 2015 (UTC)		A lot of strategy on this page needs to be redone. Monsters can't block the riders from getting to you anymore (tame, peaceful, or hostile, it doesn't matter), so things like jelly forts, taming lots of monsters, acid blob spam (No idea if this can stop their revival or not) etc aren't usable strategies anymore. Boulders will block the riders, and they use doors normally. I don't know of any other methods of blocking them. I don't think displacement slows them down any, but I'm not certain. I think it functions just like normal movement, and works 100% of the time (unlike players displacing pets). As an aside, there is code to allow tame monsters to displace others, as far as I can tell, but it doesn't actually work, and a tame rider won't ever try to displace a monster. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] ([[User talk:Qazmlpok\|talk]]) 03:01, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Rider vs steed: no damage? ==
		+
		+	Version: vanilla 3.4.3 on ubuntu laptop
		+
		+	I was playing a Valkyrie riding Carroll, a Jabberwock steed, through the end game. I was fighting Famine on the Astral Plane. Every so often, Famine would attack my Carroll. I noticed that Carroll was not dying, and I was not getting messages about hunger damage to Carroll. Looking more closely with my stethoscope, Carroll was not even losing hit points! (Famine was, though, and Carroll actually killed Famine.)
		+
		+	Looking at the 3.4.3 source:
		+
		+	When the hero is riding a steed, mattacku redirects some portion of monster attacks towards the steed. mattacku calls mattackm. mattackm switches on attack type. case AT_TUCH calls hitmm. hitmm calls mdamagem. mdamagem switches on attack damage. case AD_FAMN does not exist. mdamagem takes a default case, and assigns "tmp = 0"!
		+
		+	I verified this in wizard mode with a Jabberwock steed and again with a pet Archon (created from a figurine and allowed to pick up 10 blessed potions of gain level).
		+
		+	Similar code still in 3.6.1 source. I don't actually plan 3.6.1 so I did not test that in wizard mode, though.
		+
		+	I don't know if making Riders harmless to other monsters is intentional.
		+
		+	Changing this behavior would likely make astral plane even harder for characters with steeds or pacifist characters.
		+
		+	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 02:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)