Talk:Role difficulty - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: reply + pothole

2025-01-16T15:35:25Z

reply + pothole

Umbire the Phantom: /* My own NAO data set */ reply

2024-07-09T07:54:37Z

‎My own NAO data set: reply

Furey: Some comments + my personal stats (not bragging, I just have enough games to do tiny stats on)

2024-06-11T01:43:23Z

Some comments + my personal stats (not bragging, I just have enough games to do tiny stats on)

Derekt75: /* Wizard Difficulty */

2019-11-01T22:55:04Z

‎Wizard Difficulty

Celebrim: /* Wizard Difficulty */ new section

2019-11-01T20:02:58Z

‎Wizard Difficulty: new section

Phol ende wodan: further clarification

2017-05-02T14:12:29Z

further clarification

Phol ende wodan: clarify previous statement

2017-05-02T14:04:23Z

clarify previous statement

Phol ende wodan: Objective statistics methods

2017-05-01T19:55:41Z

Objective statistics methods

Bcode: /* Comparing Samurai and Caveman */ some of this isn't really that applicable

2013-04-04T22:34:42Z

‎Comparing Samurai and Caveman: some of this isn't really that applicable

Scorchgeek: /* Comparing Samurai and Caveman */

2013-04-04T20:05:22Z

‎Comparing Samurai and Caveman

@@ Line 250: / Line 250: @@
 :"the Scepter of Might is not very reliable beacause covetous monsters may steel it"
-:Only your [[quest nemesis]] and the [[Wizard of Yendor]] may steal it (and [[nymph]]s/[[monkey]]s, but these may steal other things too and aren't covetous). In the case of Rodney, it helps to use a [[wand of death]] as soon as possible; even if he steals the Sceptre and gains player-style [[magic resistance]], you should have another way of killing him, and he doesn't do that very often anyway.
+:Only your [[quest nemesis]] and the [[Wizard of Yendor]] may steal it (and [[Nymph (monster class)|nymphs]]/[[monkey]]s, but these may steal other things too and aren't covetous). In the case of Rodney, it helps to use a [[wand of death]] as soon as possible; even if he steals the Sceptre and gains player-style [[magic resistance]], you should have another way of killing him, and he doesn't do that very often anyway.
 :"it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame"
 :[[Options#confirm|You have to confirm that by default]], and [[Options#safe_pet|tame monsters are simply displaced by default]]. Additionally, in many variants and on [[NAO]] you can [[Options#paranoid_hit|make it more difficult to confirm accidentally]]. —[[User:bcode|bcode]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:bcode|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:EmailUser/Bcode|mail]]</sup> 22:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
@@ Line 275: / Line 275: @@
 [[User:Furey|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey|talk]]) 01:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 == My own NAO data set ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:54, 9 July 2024
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	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)		[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	:That's a pretty decent springboard to work with - FWIW, what I tend to do with Rangers is prioritize a luckstone (or equivalent item) and a means to enchant and if necessary fooproof arrows, while reserving my "good" (+2) arrows for problematic hostiles. Rangers can still be more than workable with trainable melee weapons in my experience (such as it is), but regardless of how they're played they benefit from a bit more caution compared to other roles - at least early on. WOuld have to sit and think out an essay on a full-game approach. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 07:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:43, 11 June 2024
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	: I agree that they can feel tragically dependent on Elbereth. Fortunately, their sacrifice gift gives them a way to instantly write a flawless Elbereth. How many times does your tourist die due to repeatedly smudging Elbereth in the dust? I feel like half of my lost games are due to Elbereth not working. Level 7 wizards usually don't need to worry about that, and that makes them a lot easier. [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 22:55, 1 November 2019 (UTC)		: I agree that they can feel tragically dependent on Elbereth. Fortunately, their sacrifice gift gives them a way to instantly write a flawless Elbereth. How many times does your tourist die due to repeatedly smudging Elbereth in the dust? I feel like half of my lost games are due to Elbereth not working. Level 7 wizards usually don't need to worry about that, and that makes them a lot easier. [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 22:55, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Difficulty changes by version ==
		+
		+	Good point about the aklys. It changed in 3.6.1, so certain roles got easier as of 3.6.1.
		+
		+	Also I mistrust that this article is up-to-date for 3.6.0 anyways.
		+
		+	On upcoming 3.7, monks are going to get harder (cannot start with sleep), and spellcasting roles will change because some spells are changing levels.
		+
		+	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	== My own NAO data set ==
		+
		+	I play round-robin roles on NAO, with random race and alignment. As of June 2024 I have 5 sets of 13 ascensions. Versions are NetHack 3.6.6 and NetHack 3.6.7. I assure you I try hard to ascend every game on this account.
		+
		+	https://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=Furey
		+
		+	* Valkyrie: 5 out of 8
		+	* Monk: 5 out of 8
		+	* Healer: 5 out of 9
		+	* Caveman: 5 out of 10
		+	* Barbarian: 5 out of 11
		+	* Priest: 5 out of 12
		+	* Tourist: 5 out of 15
		+	* Rogue: 5 out of 16
		+	* Knight: 5 out of 16
		+	* Archeologist: 5 out of 16
		+	* Samurai: 5 out of 17
		+	* Wizard: 5 out of 20
		+	* Ranger: 5 out of 23
		+	* TOTAL: 65 out of 181
		+
		+	I do have my own play style: no amulet of life saving, no artifact wishes, fully compliant monk (no weapon, no body armor, no shield, vegan), so monks are harder for me than other players.
		+
		+	Observations: guaranteed poison resistance is good (Barbarian, Healer, Monk at xlvl 3). Wizards are hard. If there is a good strategy for Ranger then I have not figured it out yet.
		+
		+	[[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 01:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:55, 1 November 2019
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	In short, the transition to the mid-game for the Wizard is really rough. I may not be an expert, but I have managed to get an Archeologist into an ascension run (only to have a YASD with a sea monster, succubus, Rodney interaction), and I currently have a Priest close enough to an ascension run I'm scared to play that game further. Wizard is far and away the hardest to go from that initial survival stage up to the midgame where you are focused on Medusa/Castle/Quest issues of any of the roles I've tried. Tourist and Archeologist are easy by comparison. I'm much more dependent on Elbereth than any other role I've seriously attempted, and that 70% chance of failure becomes almost guaranteed collapse at this point. I always kind of laughed at 'Team Ant', but I don't think any role I've played has had as much problems with 'Team Ant' (and the related 'Team q') as the Wizard. Attempting a run with the wizard, 'Team Ant' isn't funny anymore.		In short, the transition to the mid-game for the Wizard is really rough. I may not be an expert, but I have managed to get an Archeologist into an ascension run (only to have a YASD with a sea monster, succubus, Rodney interaction), and I currently have a Priest close enough to an ascension run I'm scared to play that game further. Wizard is far and away the hardest to go from that initial survival stage up to the midgame where you are focused on Medusa/Castle/Quest issues of any of the roles I've tried. Tourist and Archeologist are easy by comparison. I'm much more dependent on Elbereth than any other role I've seriously attempted, and that 70% chance of failure becomes almost guaranteed collapse at this point. I always kind of laughed at 'Team Ant', but I don't think any role I've played has had as much problems with 'Team Ant' (and the related 'Team q') as the Wizard. Attempting a run with the wizard, 'Team Ant' isn't funny anymore.
		+
		+	: I agree that they can feel tragically dependent on Elbereth. Fortunately, their sacrifice gift gives them a way to instantly write a flawless Elbereth. How many times does your tourist die due to repeatedly smudging Elbereth in the dust? I feel like half of my lost games are due to Elbereth not working. Level 7 wizards usually don't need to worry about that, and that makes them a lot easier. [[User:Derekt75\|Derekt75]] ([[User talk:Derekt75\|talk]]) 22:55, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:02, 1 November 2019
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	:"it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame"		:"it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame"
	:[[Options#confirm\|You have to confirm that by default]], and [[Options#safe_pet\|tame monsters are simply displaced by default]]. Additionally, in many variants and on [[NAO]] you can [[Options#paranoid_hit\|make it more difficult to confirm accidentally]]. —[[User:bcode\|bcode]] <sup>[[User talk:bcode\|talk]] \| [[Special:EmailUser/Bcode\|mail]]</sup> 22:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)		:[[Options#confirm\|You have to confirm that by default]], and [[Options#safe_pet\|tame monsters are simply displaced by default]]. Additionally, in many variants and on [[NAO]] you can [[Options#paranoid_hit\|make it more difficult to confirm accidentally]]. —[[User:bcode\|bcode]] <sup>[[User talk:bcode\|talk]] \| [[Special:EmailUser/Bcode\|mail]]</sup> 22:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Wizard Difficulty ==
		+
		+	I think that people are vastly underestimating Wizard difficulty. I'm sure in the late game they are amazing. But I think that the statistics showing how hard the role is shouldn't be dismissed solely as 'save scumming'. Starting at around level 7, wizards have some unique challenges. They cannot be played as physical characters. So unlike basically every other role, including some like the Tourist, they cannot spend time in metal armor. Unlike the Priest, they don't start with a Robe, so they have to focus on keeping spell-casting effective in order to be effective. For the Wizard there really isn't a good option of starting as a combat character and then switching to spell-casting as that becomes viable, or using your spell-casting in safe moments when you can take off the armor. The Wizard needs to be able to cast the whole game.
		+
		+	But this puts them in some unique problems. They don't have a lot of hit points and won't have good AC sans an effective protection racket. And right at about level 7, the starting advantage of having Force Bolt which lets them dominate up until level 4 or so goes away, because Force Bolt has a static to hit chance that isn't that great in the long term. And unlike the Priest, the random starting spellbook means a relatively low chance of having mid-game breaking spells like Identify and Remove Curse. So not only does it really help to have a good start with a Magic Marker, high enough int for foodless casting, and the like, but you really need to get lucky and by the Oracle level to have found several key spells - one or more of Protection, Light, Magic Missile(!), Detect Monsters, Identify(!), Remove Curse(!), etc. Even if you have, you are heavily reliant on Elbereth fall back squares and even then you really need to have found a ton of food and hopefully a Wand of Speed Monster or the like so that you can play slow enough to leave that bread crumb trail of fall back options.
		+
		+	To back up this claim of difficulty, notice just how controversial, varied, and divisive the recommended strategies in the talk page of the role are. If the wizard really was easy, would people recommend things like "Some people advocate deliberately keeping your experience level low in the early game..." Deliberately keeping your experience low has to be considered a highly skilled counterintuitive strategy that is difficult to execute. Likewise, switching out to metal armor at or around level 7-8 might be viable, but if it is, you will likely be weaker than any other role - including the tourist - at this point in the game if you are trying to be a dagger fighter.
		+
		+	In short, the transition to the mid-game for the Wizard is really rough. I may not be an expert, but I have managed to get an Archeologist into an ascension run (only to have a YASD with a sea monster, succubus, Rodney interaction), and I currently have a Priest close enough to an ascension run I'm scared to play that game further. Wizard is far and away the hardest to go from that initial survival stage up to the midgame where you are focused on Medusa/Castle/Quest issues of any of the roles I've tried. Tourist and Archeologist are easy by comparison. I'm much more dependent on Elbereth than any other role I've seriously attempted, and that 70% chance of failure becomes almost guaranteed collapse at this point. I always kind of laughed at 'Team Ant', but I don't think any role I've played has had as much problems with 'Team Ant' (and the related 'Team q') as the Wizard. Attempting a run with the wizard, 'Team Ant' isn't funny anymore.

@@ Line 230: / Line 230: @@
 Since we're probably never going to pin down a magic formula for accurate, objective win rates, here are some various ways to calculate role difficulty that could go into a table:
 * Basic win rate. Number of wins divided by the number of games. No filtering.
-* Win rate excluding quits and escapes. Perhaps we limit this exclusion to escaping only by walking up the stairs from level 1, so that escaping by other means is included as a non-ascension. ''Clarification:'' The death "quit (with the Amulet)" can probably be assumed to be a game that was trying to be won, and should not be excluded.
+* Win rate excluding quits and escapes. Perhaps we limit this exclusion to escaping only by walking up the stairs from level 1, so that escaping by other means is included as a non-ascension. ''Clarification:'' The deaths "quit (with the Amulet)", "escaped (with a fake Amulet)", and "escaped (in celestial disgrace)" can probably be assumed to be a game that was trying to be won, and should not be excluded.
 * Win rate excluding start scummers. Quits and escapes make up for a lot of these, but some start scummers get more creative and kick walls, genocide themselves, throw their weapon at themselves repeatedly, or pray and get fried to a crisp by their god.
 * Win rate excluding games that ended in less than '''x''' turns. This is impossible to tune properly, but a good number is probably around 10, where most start scummers probably will have ended their game one way or another but not that many actual players have had the chance to die.

@@ Line 225: / Line 225: @@
 :Yeah it is definitely biased towards experienced players, but I don't think it's utterly useless.  Firstly, the NetHack community is getting more experienced, since I think the lack of development is attracting relatively few new players.  Secondly, why can't we have both?  We could make a sortable chart, with both the current statistics and rankings of roles by number of online players with that as their first ascension.
 :Though that's of course not the best statistic either, since lots of players have prior local ascensions (out of curiosity, does what you're saying about wizards come from online statistics or more general knowledge?).  One way to account for this might be to look at first ascensions that came after some threshold of losses, say 150+, to isolate actual new players.  Basically, I don't think trying to get objective statistics on role difficulty is a lost cause, I just think we need to refine our chart.  But as it is, it's definitely a good gauge of role difficulty for moderately experienced players, which is better than nothing.  -[[User:Ion frigate|Ion frigate]] ([[User talk:Ion frigate|talk]]) 05:35, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 == Comparing Samurai and Caveman ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:34, 4 April 2013
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	While comparing any two roles is of course going to be somewhat difficult, all the fighter roles are pretty much the same with some minor differences in difficulty. Personally, though, I'd tend to agree with you: if I had to pick, I'd call samurai a more difficult version of barbarians, not samurai. [[User:Scorchgeek\|Scorchgeek]] ([[User talk:Scorchgeek\|talk]]) 20:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)		While comparing any two roles is of course going to be somewhat difficult, all the fighter roles are pretty much the same with some minor differences in difficulty. Personally, though, I'd tend to agree with you: if I had to pick, I'd call samurai a more difficult version of barbarians, not samurai. [[User:Scorchgeek\|Scorchgeek]] ([[User talk:Scorchgeek\|talk]]) 20:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	:"the Scepter of Might is not very reliable beacause covetous monsters may steel it"
		+	:Only your [[quest nemesis]] and the [[Wizard of Yendor]] may steal it (and [[nymph]]s/[[monkey]]s, but these may steal other things too and aren't covetous). In the case of Rodney, it helps to use a [[wand of death]] as soon as possible; even if he steals the Sceptre and gains player-style [[magic resistance]], you should have another way of killing him, and he doesn't do that very often anyway.
		+	:"it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame"
		+	:[[Options#confirm\|You have to confirm that by default]], and [[Options#safe_pet\|tame monsters are simply displaced by default]]. Additionally, in many variants and on [[NAO]] you can [[Options#paranoid_hit\|make it more difficult to confirm accidentally]]. —[[User:bcode\|bcode]] <sup>[[User talk:bcode\|talk]] \| [[Special:EmailUser/Bcode\|mail]]</sup> 22:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:05, 4 April 2013
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	Comparing Caveman and Samurai is a bit odd. Ok, both are a balance between melee and ranged fight (and need not fear floating eyes) but there are much differences between them. The Samurai is better in terms of weapons. You starts with good ones, and can #enhance the sword skills, what is usefull since much Artifacts are swords. The Caveman is restricted in swords and getting unrestricted to basic when getting Vorpal Blade in't very usefull either. Good Weapons like Axes and Spears are rare in the early game and the Scepter of Might is not very reliable beacause covetous monsters may steel it. It gets much easier after the Castle when you get lots of spears, that make quick work of mindflayers. The Caveman is better in terms of ethics. While the Samurai has to follow some extra conducts, the Caveman may eat humans, dogs and cats. Instead of eating the K and C Rations dropped by soldiers, you can eat the soldiers and keep the permafood for bad times, and you can eat werecreatures to summon pets. While gravedigging and poison can be averted, it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame and the need to be lawfull is a disadvantage in terms of unicorn frequency, genocide and mysterious force. --[[Special:Contributions/79.210.43.203\|79.210.43.203]] 17:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)		Comparing Caveman and Samurai is a bit odd. Ok, both are a balance between melee and ranged fight (and need not fear floating eyes) but there are much differences between them. The Samurai is better in terms of weapons. You starts with good ones, and can #enhance the sword skills, what is usefull since much Artifacts are swords. The Caveman is restricted in swords and getting unrestricted to basic when getting Vorpal Blade in't very usefull either. Good Weapons like Axes and Spears are rare in the early game and the Scepter of Might is not very reliable beacause covetous monsters may steel it. It gets much easier after the Castle when you get lots of spears, that make quick work of mindflayers. The Caveman is better in terms of ethics. While the Samurai has to follow some extra conducts, the Caveman may eat humans, dogs and cats. Instead of eating the K and C Rations dropped by soldiers, you can eat the soldiers and keep the permafood for bad times, and you can eat werecreatures to summon pets. While gravedigging and poison can be averted, it may often happen to hit accidently something peacefull or tame and the need to be lawfull is a disadvantage in terms of unicorn frequency, genocide and mysterious force. --[[Special:Contributions/79.210.43.203\|79.210.43.203]] 17:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
		+
		+	> It gets much easier after the Castle when you get lots of spears
		+
		+	Really? I tried that once and thought it was ridiculous because they weigh so much.
		+
		+	While comparing any two roles is of course going to be somewhat difficult, all the fighter roles are pretty much the same with some minor differences in difficulty. Personally, though, I'd tend to agree with you: if I had to pick, I'd call samurai a more difficult version of barbarians, not samurai. [[User:Scorchgeek\|Scorchgeek]] ([[User talk:Scorchgeek\|talk]]) 20:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)