Talk:Speed ascension - Revision history

Testbutt: /* broken links */ new section

2020-12-24T01:27:35Z

‎broken links: new section

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ luck

2011-06-08T16:48:45Z

‎Obtaining resources: luck

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ how to get sleep

2011-06-08T16:44:14Z

‎Obtaining resources: how to get sleep

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ glass gems for price/weight

2011-06-08T16:40:33Z

‎Obtaining resources: glass gems for price/weight

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ drop flammables

2011-06-08T16:39:13Z

‎Obtaining resources: drop flammables

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ copyedit

2011-06-08T16:36:51Z

‎Obtaining resources: copyedit

Tjr: /* Obtaining resources */ new section

2011-06-08T16:35:11Z

‎Obtaining resources: new section

Ais523: /* Fastest possible */ I think it's 2016

2011-06-01T17:10:00Z

‎Fastest possible: I think it's 2016

Tjr: /* Fastest possible */

2011-06-01T17:08:07Z

‎Fastest possible

Tjr: ais523 is the leading expert on the nethack "speed of light"

2011-06-01T17:06:36Z

ais523 is the leading expert on the nethack "speed of light"

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:27, 24 December 2020
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	</pre>		</pre>
	Morphing into an arch-lich doesn't cut it because you either will destroy your rings and wands or have no way to feel like a new arch-lich when wounded.--[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 16:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)		Morphing into an arch-lich doesn't cut it because you either will destroy your rings and wands or have no way to feel like a new arch-lich when wounded.--[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 16:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
		+
		+	== broken links ==
		+
		+	Many of the links in this page are broken, notably links to nethack-EU dumplogs. --[[User:Testbutt\|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt\|talk]]) 01:27, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 * Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig through dark levels, since you have a light source on your way up. Autopickup cloaks, projectiles, glass gems, and bows to pay with.
-The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.) (To get sleep, you dilute a potion in the castle moat, wish for a marker, and write it on a book you find in the Valley.)
+The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.) (To get sleep, you dilute a potion in the castle moat, wish for a marker, play with unicorns in a Castle chamber, and write it on a book you find in the Valley.)
 <pre>
 |.....|.

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 * Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig through dark levels, since you have a light source on your way up. Autopickup cloaks, projectiles, glass gems, and bows to pay with.
-The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.)
+The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.) (To get sleep, you dilute a potion in the castle moat, wish for a marker, and write it on a book you find in the Valley.)
 <pre>
 |.....|.

@@ Line 42: / Line 42: @@
 * Rob shops on your way down. Requires a lot of real-life luck. Monster detection or better telepathy can help locate shopkeepers, but you still waste a lot of time walking over. With unskilled monster detection, shopkeepers, priests, and nurses can be distinguished by their movement pattern. You also want a way to take your pick-axe along. Killing the shopkeeper can hose your Luck and wishes.
 * Chests and vampires in the Valley of the Dead and Vlad's level. This is slow - around 1000 turns to clear the Valley for me; Maud is faster. It helps to have a lamp, and to drum/horn the zombies away, since a master mind flayer doesn't kill them quickly and other polyforms can't prevent level drain with a cloak.
-* Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig through dark levels, since you have a light source on your way up. Collect cloaks, projectiles, and bows to pay with.
+* Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig through dark levels, since you have a light source on your way up. Autopickup cloaks, projectiles, glass gems, and bows to pay with.
 The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.)

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 * Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig through dark levels, since you have a light source on your way up. Collect cloaks, projectiles, and bows to pay with.
-The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range.
+The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range. (Drop your flammables in advance.)
 <pre>
 |.....|.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:35, 8 June 2011
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	:::I think it's very unlikely that faster than 2016 (with two spare actions on turn 2016) is found, unless someone finds a new glitch. That's how long it takes to do the ascension run via the fastest known strategies at the moment, assuming perfect luck. (It does take an entire turn for each of the Planes, other than Fire which can be done in the same turn as Air, because the glitches involved require turn boundaries to work; most other levels are done in one action or less, with the exception of the Quest and Invocation, which are slightly slower.) [[User:Ais523\|Ais523]] 17:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC)		:::I think it's very unlikely that faster than 2016 (with two spare actions on turn 2016) is found, unless someone finds a new glitch. That's how long it takes to do the ascension run via the fastest known strategies at the moment, assuming perfect luck. (It does take an entire turn for each of the Planes, other than Fire which can be done in the same turn as Air, because the glitches involved require turn boundaries to work; most other levels are done in one action or less, with the exception of the Quest and Invocation, which are slightly slower.) [[User:Ais523\|Ais523]] 17:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Obtaining resources ==
		+
		+	Some ways to get scrolls:
		+	* Rob shops on your way down. Requires a lot of real-life luck. Monster detection or better telepathy can help locate shopkeepers, but you still waste a lot of time walking over. With unskilled monster detection, shopkeepers, priests, and nurses can be distinguished by their movement pattern. You also want a way to take your pick-axe along. Killing the shopkeeper can hose your Luck and wishes.
		+	* Chests and vampires in the Valley of the Dead and Vlad's level. This is slow - around 1000 turns to clear the Valley for me; Maud is faster. It helps to have a lamp, and to drum/horn the zombies away, since a master mind flayer doesn't kill them quickly and other polyforms can't prevent level drain with a cloak.
		+	* Go to mine town. Saves a wish for candles, but doesn't yield spectacularily much. Dig throug dark levels, since you have light on your way up. Collect cloaks, projectiles, and bows to pay with.
		+
		+	The priest of Moloch has books to polypile. Though still risky, the best way to kill him seems to be: Clear distractions, turn into a silver dragon for reflection, line up for double-bounces and cast sleep, and fight on the prepared permanent Elbereth. Telepathy and warning help in case he resists the sleep spell and summons ants. He won't move once you are battling in melee range.
		+	<pre>
		+	\|.....\|.
		+	\|.@E.D\|-
		+	\|.._..E.
		+	\|..E..\|.
		+	\|.....\|-
		+	</pre>
		+	Morphing into an arch-lich doesn't cut it because you either will destroy your rings and wands or have no way to feel like a new arch-lich when wounded.--[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 16:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:10, 1 June 2011
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	::*The Elemental Planes each get their own almost comical strategy, e.g. stepping onto lava in the plane of fire will lifesave you next to the portal, and the Astral Planes uses a neat egg trick.		::*The Elemental Planes each get their own almost comical strategy, e.g. stepping onto lava in the plane of fire will lifesave you next to the portal, and the Astral Planes uses a neat egg trick.
	::Please ask Ais523 himself if you want to know more details, I'm just a bystander. I'm positive this TAS and its writeup will be awesome. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 17:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)		::Please ask Ais523 himself if you want to know more details, I'm just a bystander. I'm positive this TAS and its writeup will be awesome. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 17:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
		+
		+	:::I think it's very unlikely that faster than 2016 (with two spare actions on turn 2016) is found, unless someone finds a new glitch. That's how long it takes to do the ascension run via the fastest known strategies at the moment, assuming perfect luck. (It does take an entire turn for each of the Planes, other than Fire which can be done in the same turn as Air, because the glitches involved require turn boundaries to work; most other levels are done in one action or less, with the exception of the Quest and Invocation, which are slightly slower.) [[User:Ais523\|Ais523]] 17:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

@@ Line 31: / Line 31: @@
 ::*Polymorphing into a (hasted) air elemental wearing the Eye of the Overworld lets your take several actions per turn, including a jump on the last.
 ::*Quaffing cursed gain level you "happen to find" lets you traverse the dungeon at one level per action.
-::*The High Priest of Moloch can be killed by a tame shapeshifter/polytrapped air elemental turned cockatrice on the same turn you levelport into the Sanctum.
+::*The (conflicted) High Priest of Moloch can be killed by a tame shapeshifter/polytrapped air elemental turned cockatrice on the same turn you levelport into the Sanctum.
 ::*The Elemental Planes each get their own almost comical strategy, e.g. stepping onto lava in the plane of fire will lifesave you next to the portal, and the Astral Planes uses a neat egg trick.
 ::Please ask Ais523 himself if you want to know more details, I'm just a bystander. I'm positive this TAS and its writeup will be awesome. --[[User:Tjr|Tjr]] 17:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:06, 1 June 2011
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	Does anyone know, if you assume absolutely ideal conditions (shortest dungeon possible, poly'd into an air elemental except to read the Book, no monsters in the way, using levelporting/teleporting where possible, etc) what the fastest possible ascension would be? It seems that it shouldn't be random - if you let a monster carry the Amulet for you, the mysterious force shouldn't be a problem, and so you could always teleport between staircases. Of course you have to add a turn then to kill the monster carrying the Amulet, but that's probably still faster than it could be otherwise (given that levels in the Dungeon proper can't have adjacent staircases, teleportation will always save you at least a turn, even in constructed, highly improbable "ideal" circumstances) -[[User:Ion frigate\|Ion frigate]] 04:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)		Does anyone know, if you assume absolutely ideal conditions (shortest dungeon possible, poly'd into an air elemental except to read the Book, no monsters in the way, using levelporting/teleporting where possible, etc) what the fastest possible ascension would be? It seems that it shouldn't be random - if you let a monster carry the Amulet for you, the mysterious force shouldn't be a problem, and so you could always teleport between staircases. Of course you have to add a turn then to kill the monster carrying the Amulet, but that's probably still faster than it could be otherwise (given that levels in the Dungeon proper can't have adjacent staircases, teleportation will always save you at least a turn, even in constructed, highly improbable "ideal" circumstances) -[[User:Ion frigate\|Ion frigate]] 04:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
	:The only strict minimum is 2000 turns, as before that you cannot have enough alignment to do the quest and thus the invocation. It's perfectly possible to map out every level and obtain the candellabrum, 7 candles, and the book of the dead in this time (I believe one of Maud's near-2000 turn ascension details this in RGRN). So you need enough time to do the quest, a few turns to get the amulet using Asmodeus or another demon, then at least two movements per level to go up the stairs. Then the elemental planes and all. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 12:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)		:The only strict minimum is 2000 turns, as before that you cannot have enough alignment to do the quest and thus the invocation. It's perfectly possible to map out every level and obtain the candellabrum, 7 candles, and the book of the dead in this time (I believe one of Maud's near-2000 turn ascension details this in RGRN). So you need enough time to do the quest, a few turns to get the amulet using Asmodeus or another demon, then at least two movements per level to go up the stairs. Then the elemental planes and all. -- [[User:Qazmlpok\|Qazmlpok]] 12:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
		+
		+	::[[User:Ais523\|Ais523]] is preparing a TAS speedrun going for the fastest theoretically possible turn count, of course savescumming the random number generator. I believe he said something like 2017 turns. A few highlights:
		+	::*Polymorphing into a (hasted) air elemental wearing the Eye of the Overworld lets your take several actions per turn, including a jump on the last.
		+	::*Quaffing cursed gain level you "happen to find" lets you traverse the dungeon at one level per action.
		+	::*The High Priest of Moloch can be killed by a tame shapeshifter/polytrapped air elemental turned cockatrice on the same turn you levelport into the Sanctum.
		+	::*The Elemental Planes each get their own almost comical strategy, e.g. stepping onto lava in the plane of fire will lifesave you next to the portal, and the Astral Planes uses a neat egg trick.
		+	::Please ask Ais523 himself if you want to know more details, I'm just a bystander. I'm positive this TAS and its writeup will be awesome. --[[User:Tjr\|Tjr]] 17:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)