Talk:Speed boots - Revision history

Furey: /* Strategy section */ Speed boots are for the fourth wish, not the first wish.

2024-06-25T13:54:09Z

‎Strategy section: Speed boots are for the fourth wish, not the first wish.

Furey: /* "20 moves per turn" */ i, too, don't like this language

2024-06-25T13:33:03Z

‎"20 moves per turn": i, too, don't like this language

Umbire the Phantom: pothole for clarity

2024-06-25T13:07:42Z

pothole for clarity

Luxidream at 05:56, 5 July 2021

2021-07-05T05:56:29Z

Actual-nh: /* Strategy section */ Typo

2021-07-05T02:56:16Z

‎Strategy section: Typo

Actual-nh: /* Strategy section */ Variants may indeed have different strategy

2021-07-05T02:54:57Z

‎Strategy section: Variants may indeed have different strategy

Actual-nh: /* Strategy section */ Will check vanilla-only with current data, and do from other sources when can get around to it

2021-07-04T20:22:06Z

‎Strategy section: Will check vanilla-only with current data, and do from other sources when can get around to it

Luxidream at 19:31, 4 July 2021

2021-07-04T19:31:39Z

Actual-nh: /* Strategy section */ Please take a look at Talk:Alignment

2021-07-02T20:42:57Z

‎Strategy section: Please take a look at Talk:Alignment

Actual-nh: /* Strategy section */ 3.6+ Junethack still significant re artifact wishing

2021-07-02T19:51:25Z

‎Strategy section: 3.6+ Junethack still significant re artifact wishing

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:54, 25 June 2024
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	::: Understand! -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)		::: Understand! -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
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		+	My strategy: first wish is for magic resistance (or scrolls of charging if from a wand). Second and third wishes are for reflection and poison resistance. Speed boots are indeed my favorite armor for the slot, but getting either GDSM or SDSM brings a big boost in armor class and ability to carry more without being burdened, in addition to protecting against a wand of death and other very damaging attacks. So one of them is higher priority on the wish list. Not to mention HPD artifacts. So for a fountain wish, throne wish, lamp wish, or potion wish, I'm not going for speed boots.
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		+	I don't speedrun but I do have a good ascension rate on NAO, evenly distributed across roles.
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		+	Another strong player once mentioned to me: speed boots are overrated. I think so too. [[User:Furey\|Furey]] ([[User talk:Furey\|talk]]) 13:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
		+	And I have heard another strong player

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 :(Please put discussion into sections.)
 :This seems to refer to 20 ''movement points'' per turn, which indeed means 5 actions per 3 turns; <math>\frac{20}{12}=\frac{5}{3}</math>. Fixed the article. —[[User:bcode|bcode]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:bcode|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:EmailUser/Bcode|mail]]</sup> 18:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 == Strategy section ==

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 :If I remember correctly, I'm the one who made the edits to the speed boots page. I'll make the case against speed boots here because I consider them one of the most overrated items in the game, and are only considered necessary for ascension because the wiki has said so for a very long time. Most of my ascensions do not use speed boots at all.
 :Contrary to the article, they're a relatively poor wish in the early game. If you have neither magic resistance or reflection, you should wish for one of those properties. If you have one of those, it is optimal to wish for the other to avoid more instadeaths. Thus, you might consider wishing for speed boots only if you already have magic resistance and reflection, so likely the second or third wish in the early game (a rare occasion), where it also competes with [[half physical damage]] artifacts.
-:Later in the game, wishing for speed boots doesn't get any better. A wand of polymorph or a magic marker is far more impactful, since they can be used to get large quantities of genocide and enchant armor to increase your character's HP and AC considerably. Potions of speed are common as [[defensive item]]s, do not consume a wish, and can be quaffed before dangerous levels like the [[Astral Plane]]. Spellcasters can stack thousands of turns of [[haste self]] using a power regenerating artifact and never have to recast it for the rest of the game.
+:Later in the game, wishing for speed boots doesn't get any better. A wand of polymorph or a magic marker is far more impactful, since they can be used to get large quantities of genocide and enchant armor to increase your character's HP and AC considerably. Potions of speed are common as [[defensive item]]s, do not consume a wish, and can be quaffed before dangerous levels like the [[Astral Plane]]. Spellcasters can stack thousands of turns of {{+ of|haste self}} using a power regenerating artifact and never have to recast it for the rest of the game.
 :I view speed boots like I do [[gauntlets of power]] or a [[helm of telepathy]] - they are the easily the best armor for the slot, but the advantages that they provide are small. As a beginner, I was often lured into wishing for a full set of these items at the Castle, only to find I was lacking in hit points, valuable rings, and magic markers. Like gauntlets of power, speed boots are a great item to find early on. They are at their most useful at this point since it allows you to gain speed before finding a [[quantum mechanic]] corpse or a [[wand of speed monster]], allowing you to easily escape from speed 12 monsters. However, there are much better wishes, and speed boots should not be on the same level of necessity as magic resistance or reflection as the wiki makes it seem. --[[User:Luxidream|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream|talk]]) 09:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:56, 5 July 2021
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	:::::::: The artifact-wishes vs possible boots wish is slightly more significant without the variants included (0.043389), which considering that it's removing data - which usually would worsen the p-value - is indeed a good argument that variants may have different strategy. I'll check a few of the others. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 02:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)		:::::::: The artifact-wishes vs possible boots wish is slightly more significant without the variants included (0.043389), which considering that it's removing data - which usually would worsen the p-value - is indeed a good argument that variants may have different strategy. I'll check a few of the others. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 02:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::::::::: Sometimes with extra wishes on a speedrun, I will wish for speed boots on the ascension run to reduce harassment and save time, especially if I've accidentally lost intrinsic speed to a shade. I'm poking fun at the fact that I normally advise against wishing for speed boots, which I still stand by. Many speedrun wishes, such as "3 cursed genocide", "amulet of reflection", and "3 cursed gain level" would be bad in a normal run, and I use speed boots for a similar purpose there. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 05:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

	At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)		At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

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 ::::::: OK re half physical damage (how about half spell damage?). -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 20:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::: The artifact-wishes vs possible boots wish is slightly more significant without the variants included (0.043389), which considering that it's removing data - which usually would worsen the p-value - is indeed a good argument that variants may have different strategy. I"ll check a few of the others. -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 02:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::: The artifact-wishes vs possible boots wish is slightly more significant without the variants included (0.043389), which considering that it's removing data - which usually would worsen the p-value - is indeed a good argument that variants may have different strategy. I'll check a few of the others. -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 02:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:54, 5 July 2021
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	::::::: OK re half physical damage (how about half spell damage?). -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)		::::::: OK re half physical damage (how about half spell damage?). -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

		+	:::::::: The artifact-wishes vs possible boots wish is slightly more significant without the variants included (0.043389), which considering that it's removing data - which usually would worsen the p-value - is indeed a good argument that variants may have different strategy. I"ll check a few of the others. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 02:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

	At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)		At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:22, 4 July 2021
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	:::::: On your proposed change, I think it should specify half physical damage artifacts. Carried MR artifacts like the [[Magic Mirror of Merlin]] and the [[Platinum Yendorian Express Card]] are poor wishes that don't compete with speed boots well when it comes to increasing your survivability. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 19:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)		:::::: On your proposed change, I think it should specify half physical damage artifacts. Carried MR artifacts like the [[Magic Mirror of Merlin]] and the [[Platinum Yendorian Express Card]] are poor wishes that don't compete with speed boots well when it comes to increasing your survivability. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 19:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

		+	::::::: I can check without any variants for most of the Junethack data; the 3.6+ ones have a total of 17 variant cases (of which 1 is Artifactless - xNetHack); I can try to do that today. With the [[xlogfile]]s and some programming, I can construct dumplog links for most servers (em.slashem.me has problems). A bit more programming should be able to extract the speed boots (and fast/very fast) presence. (I do see some cases in which the character ascended - very fast speed - not wearing speed boots, but having them in their possession; I've counted these as with possibly-wished-for speed boots unless there was some reason otherwise. BTW, you named one pair of speed boots "do as I say not as I do"?) I don't know when I'll be able to get around to it, however - lots of stuff is up in RL... sigh. Thanks for taking a look, BTW!
		+	::::::: OK re half physical damage (how about half spell damage?). -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:31, 4 July 2021
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	::::::Not significant checking with wizards considered to have speed available; also not significant looking specifically at whether the eye was available. I did find some rather odd alignment/artifact wishing results - see [[Talk:Alignment]]. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)		::::::Not significant checking with wizards considered to have speed available; also not significant looking specifically at whether the eye was available. I did find some rather odd alignment/artifact wishing results - see [[Talk:Alignment]]. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	:::::: I think it would be possible to get every vanilla NetHack dumplog from the NetHack scoreboard to avoid having to use variants, which may change the correct strategy. https://nethackscoreboard.org/ascended.nh.html has at least the last 1000 ascensions, and I'd ask the scoreboard maintainer, aoeixsz4, about getting them in a reasonable way.
		+	:::::: On your proposed change, I think it should specify half physical damage artifacts. Carried MR artifacts like the [[Magic Mirror of Merlin]] and the [[Platinum Yendorian Express Card]] are poor wishes that don't compete with speed boots well when it comes to increasing your survivability. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 19:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
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	At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)		At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:42, 2 July 2021
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	::::::With all 3.6+ (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack - GnollHack dumplogs are not available) Junethack ascensions with any wishes, which is a somewhat smaller set (127 instead of 144 total), the p-value is still (using social science standards) significant (.059477). With regard to whether roles gain Fast Speed at some point, this does not have a significant effect with this set of games; I will next check with wizards added to the roles effectively (at least potentially) gaining Fast+ Speed, given the Eye. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:51, 2 July 2021 (UTC)		::::::With all 3.6+ (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack - GnollHack dumplogs are not available) Junethack ascensions with any wishes, which is a somewhat smaller set (127 instead of 144 total), the p-value is still (using social science standards) significant (.059477). With regard to whether roles gain Fast Speed at some point, this does not have a significant effect with this set of games; I will next check with wizards added to the roles effectively (at least potentially) gaining Fast+ Speed, given the Eye. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:51, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::::::Not significant checking with wizards considered to have speed available; also not significant looking specifically at whether the eye was available. I did find some rather odd alignment/artifact wishing results - see [[Talk:Alignment]]. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 20:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

	At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)		At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:51, 2 July 2021
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	:::::Thanks. I'll leave the page intact. My opinion on speed boots in well in the minority, so maybe the page should not reflect that. I do wonder how much of that popularity is from the wiki and pre-3.4.3 spoilers more than anything else, though. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 08:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)		:::::Thanks. I'll leave the page intact. My opinion on speed boots in well in the minority, so maybe the page should not reflect that. I do wonder how much of that popularity is from the wiki and pre-3.4.3 spoilers more than anything else, though. --[[User:Luxidream\|Luxidream]] ([[User talk:Luxidream\|talk]]) 08:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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		+	::::::With all 3.6+ (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack - GnollHack dumplogs are not available) Junethack ascensions with any wishes, which is a somewhat smaller set (127 instead of 144 total), the p-value is still (using social science standards) significant (.059477). With regard to whether roles gain Fast Speed at some point, this does not have a significant effect with this set of games; I will next check with wizards added to the roles effectively (at least potentially) gaining Fast+ Speed, given the Eye. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 19:51, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

	At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)		At 173 Junethack ascensions, and 144 usable games, a Chi-square P-value is .03263 for a relationship between Artifact Wishless and having possibly-wished-for speed boots during the EndGame. Proposed change to strategy section: If you don't plan on wishing for any artifacts, then speed boots may be a reasonable wish, although not the first priority. If you do plan on wishing for artifacts, (non-artifact) speed boots are less important than that. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)