Unwinnable - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: needs copyedit across the board, but can just do it like so

2025-05-10T20:10:17Z

needs copyedit across the board, but can just do it like so

Ion frigate: better wording; i'm tempted to link "requiring" to autocurse but i gather we're avoiding that type of wikilink

2025-05-10T09:06:08Z

better wording; i'm tempted to link "requiring" to autocurse but i gather we're avoiding that type of wikilink

Ion frigate: it's always necessary; feel like it'd be too wordy (and not overly relevant) to link autocurse here, but remove unnecessary qualifier

2025-05-10T09:04:44Z

it's always necessary; feel like it'd be too wordy (and not overly relevant) to link autocurse here, but remove unnecessary qualifier

Umbire the Phantom: /* Dead quest leader */ upcoming fix

2025-04-20T20:55:32Z

‎Dead quest leader: upcoming fix

Ion frigate: the strippers, JFK and Nixon (yeah, not actually an oxford comma, but similar)

2025-04-11T08:02:06Z

the strippers, JFK and Nixon (yeah, not actually an oxford comma, but similar)

Umbire the Phantom: adjust wording

2025-04-11T08:00:52Z

adjust wording

Ion frigate: not actually a typo but on balance probably better

2025-04-11T06:39:57Z

not actually a typo but on balance probably better

Ion frigate: i think that's actually the more standard way to do it

2025-04-11T06:39:27Z

i think that's actually the more standard way to do it

Ion frigate: i suppose this isn't worth creating a redirect

2025-04-11T06:38:23Z

i suppose this isn't worth creating a redirect

Ion frigate: rewrite - trapping yourself inside is a lot closer to unwinnable; monsters will spawn in the central chamber, though not until every square is filled up

2025-04-11T06:37:44Z

rewrite - trapping yourself inside is a lot closer to unwinnable; monsters *will* spawn in the central chamber, though not until every square is filled up

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 The best a player can do in an unwinnable situation is to [[escaping the dungeon|escape the dungeon]] with the [[Candelabrum of Invocation]], the [[Book of the Dead]] and any other sources of bragging rights.
-==Converting your alignment==
+==Permanently converting your alignment==
-If the player unsuccessfully performs an altar conversion by sacrificing at a [[cross-aligned]] altar with negative [[alignment record]], he or she is converted to the [[alignment]] of the altar. That means permission to proceed down cannot be obtained from the quest leader at all. A player's alignment cannot be converted back to any previously held alignment by means of an altar, and the [[quest leader]] will "see through" a helm of opposite alignment.
+If the player unsuccessfully performs an altar conversion by sacrificing at a [[cross-aligned]] altar with negative [[alignment record]], he or she is ''permanently'' converted to the [[alignment]] of the altar. If done before they obtain permission to proceed down from the [[quest leader]], the game is made unwinnable: a hero's alignment cannot be converted back to any previously held alignment by means of an altar, and the quest leader will "see through" a helm of opposite alignment; furthermore, you cannot go down or [[level teleport]] from the quest home level, even with prior permission, if you are not of your original alignment.
-You cannot go down or [[level teleport]] from the quest home level, even with prior permission, if you are not of your original alignment. This ''can'' be overcome with a helm of opposite alignment.
+The above situation ''can'' be overcome with a helm of opposite alignment, which also changes the hero's alignment, but only while the helm is worn. As such, it does '''not''' render the game unwinnable, since removing the helm (which usually requires [[curse removal|uncursing it]] due to its [[autocursing]] nature) restores the character's previous alignment. Note that you cannot put on the helm in the quest branch, with a somewhat misleading message being printed if you try:
-Note that simply putting on a helm of opposite alignment does '''not''' render the game unwinnable -- removing the helm (requiring [[curse removal|uncursing]] it) restores the character's previous alignment. You cannot put on the helm in the quest branch. The message you get if you try, "You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal", is somewhat misleading.
+{{message|You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal}}
 ==Getting expelled==

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 You cannot go down or [[level teleport]] from the quest home level, even with prior permission, if you are not of your original alignment. This ''can'' be overcome with a helm of opposite alignment.
-Note that simply putting on a helm of opposite alignment does '''not''' render the game unwinnable -- removing the helm (after [[curse removal|uncursing]] it) restores the character's previous alignment. You cannot put on the helm in the quest branch. The message you get if you try, "You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal", is somewhat misleading.
+Note that simply putting on a helm of opposite alignment does '''not''' render the game unwinnable -- removing the helm (requiring [[curse removal|uncursing]] it) restores the character's previous alignment. You cannot put on the helm in the quest branch. The message you get if you try, "You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal", is somewhat misleading.
 ==Getting expelled==

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 You cannot go down or [[level teleport]] from the quest home level, even with prior permission, if you are not of your original alignment. This ''can'' be overcome with a helm of opposite alignment.
-Note that simply putting on a helm of opposite alignment does '''not''' render the game unwinnable -- removing the helm (after [[curse removal|uncursing]], if necessary) restores the character's previous alignment. You cannot put on the helm in the quest branch. The message you get if you try, "You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal", is somewhat misleading.
+Note that simply putting on a helm of opposite alignment does '''not''' render the game unwinnable -- removing the helm (after [[curse removal|uncursing]] it) restores the character's previous alignment. You cannot put on the helm in the quest branch. The message you get if you try, "You narrowly avoid losing all chance at your goal", is somewhat misleading.
 ==Getting expelled==

@@ Line 32: / Line 32: @@
 ==Dead quest leader==
-{{upcoming|NetHack 3.7.0|You can gain access to the Quest by killing your Quest Leader. Doing so gives +7 to god [[anger]] and -20 to [[Luck]], and causes your Luck to time out to -4. You also forfeit the alignment record bonus from killing your Quest Nemesis.}}
+If the [[quest leader]] is killed or [[level teleport]]s before you get permission to go down, the game will also be unwinnable. (Monsters will read scrolls of teleportation when they are low on hit points.) Luckily, the leader is generated meditating, and a peaceful one will only be attacked by pets under conflict, so a levelporting leader is extremely rare. Due to a bug, a [[petrified]] quest leader brought back with [[stone to flesh]] or one that has been [[revived]] will not grant permission. Additionally, only the actual monster can grant or deny permission; a [[doppelganger]] imitating them through some means (e.g. using stone to flesh on a statue of a quest guardian or leader) does not count.
-If the [[quest leader]] is killed or [[level teleport]]s before you get permission to go down, the game will also be unwinnable. (Monsters will read scrolls of teleportation when they are low on hit points.) Luckily, the leader is generated meditating, and a peaceful one will only be attacked by pets under conflict, so a levelporting leader is extremely rare. Due to a bug, a [[petrified]] quest leader brought back with [[stone to flesh]] or one that has been [[revive]]d will not grant permission. Additionally, only the actual monster can grant or deny permission; a [[doppelganger]] imitating them through some means (e.g. using stone to flesh on a statue of a quest guardian or leader) does not count.
+The same restrictions apply to expulsion from the quest, in case you are trying to leave it with the Amulet.
-The same restrictions apply to expulsion from the quest, in case you are trying to leave it with the Amulet.
+{{upcoming|NetHack 3.7.0|Per {{commit|20cbadcf85544cf9d0c3f4e4200b2800bab49c8e}}, being expelled from the Quest no longer seals off the branch by removing the portal, meaning that the game is no longer unwinnable: the quest leader will be hostile when you re-enter the level, and you may either pacify the leader and get their approval to enter the Quest normally, or you may kill them: doing so increases your god's [[anger]] by 7, sets your base [[luck]] to -4, applies a -20 luck penalty, and forfeits the [[alignment record]] bonus from killing the quest nemesis.}}
 ==History==

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 ==Variants==
 ===SLASH'EM===
-In SLASH'EM, the six innermost doors on the highest level of [[Vlad's Tower]] are indestructible, protecting [[Vlad the Impaler]] and the Candelabrum of Invocation.  They are opened by the [[alignment key]]s, artifact [[skeleton key]]s which can be destroyed like any other item (e.g. eaten by a [[metallivore]]).  While the destruction of the keys would seem to render the game unwinnable, it does not: Vlad can be woken by such means as a [[drum of earthquake]] or a psychic blast from a tame [[mind flayer]] or a hero [[polymorph]]ed into one, and he will then warp to the player carrying the Candelabrum.  Alternately, an appropriate [[covetous]] monster can be lured to his level, which will then warp to him and wake him up.
+In SLASH'EM, the six innermost doors on the highest level of [[Vlad's Tower]] are indestructible, protecting [[Vlad the Impaler]] and the Candelabrum of Invocation.  They are opened by the [[alignment key]]s, artifact [[skeleton key]]s which can be destroyed like any other item (e.g. eaten by a [[metallivore]]).  While the destruction of the keys would seem to render the game unwinnable, it does not: Vlad can be woken by such means as a [[drum of earthquake]] or a psychic blast from a tame [[mind flayer]] or a hero [[polymorph]]ed into one, and he will then warp to the player, carrying the Candelabrum.  Alternately, an appropriate [[covetous]] monster can be lured to his level, which will then warp to him and wake him up.
 A considerably tougher situation can be created by trapping oneself ''inside'' Vlad's chambers, with the keys either destroyed or simply outside.  This is actually not too difficult to do: quaffing a cursed [[potion of gain level]] on the floor below can leave you inside the locked doors, as can more obscure means such as re-locking the doors and eating the keys.  As the walls and floor of Vlad's Tower are undiggable and the level is no-teleport, the only means of escape is some form of [[level teleportation]] or [[branchport]]ing.  A hero lacking such a means would be required to wait around until an appropriate item is generated from a [[death drop]], and this is not guaranteed to occur before all suitable monsters are rendered [[extinct]]&mdash;particularly in SLASH'EM where non-humanoid monsters never leave death drops.  In order to guarantee an eventual escape, a hero would need to exploit a monster capable of casting [[summon nasties]], which does not respect extinction.

@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 In SLASH'EM, the six innermost doors on the highest level of [[Vlad's Tower]] are indestructible, protecting [[Vlad the Impaler]] and the Candelabrum of Invocation.  They are opened by the [[alignment key]]s, artifact [[skeleton key]]s which can be destroyed like any other item (e.g. eaten by a [[metallivore]]).  While the destruction of the keys would seem to render the game unwinnable, it does not: Vlad can be woken by such means as a [[drum of earthquake]] or the psychic blast of a tame [[mind flayer]], and he will then warp to the player carrying the Candelabrum.  Alternately, an appropriate [[covetous]] monster can be lured to his level, which will then warp to him and wake him up.
-A considerably tougher situation can be created by trapping oneself ''inside'' Vlad's chambers, with the keys either destroyed or simply outside.  This is actually not too difficult to do: quaffing a cursed [[potion of gain level]] on the floor below can leave you inside the locked doors, as can more obscure means such as re-locking the doors and eating the keys.  As the walls and floor of Vlad's Tower are undiggable and the level is no-teleport, the only means of escape is some form of [[level teleportation]] or [[branchporting]].  A hero lacking such a means would be required to wait around until an appropriate item is generated from a [[death drop]], and this is not guaranteed to occur before all suitable monsters are rendered [[extinct]]&mdash;particularly in SLASH'EM where non-humanoid monsters never leave death drops.  In order to guarantee an eventual escape, a hero would need to exploit a monster capable of casting [[summon nasties]], which does not respect extinction.
+A considerably tougher situation can be created by trapping oneself ''inside'' Vlad's chambers, with the keys either destroyed or simply outside.  This is actually not too difficult to do: quaffing a cursed [[potion of gain level]] on the floor below can leave you inside the locked doors, as can more obscure means such as re-locking the doors and eating the keys.  As the walls and floor of Vlad's Tower are undiggable and the level is no-teleport, the only means of escape is some form of [[level teleportation]] or [[branchport]]ing.  A hero lacking such a means would be required to wait around until an appropriate item is generated from a [[death drop]], and this is not guaranteed to occur before all suitable monsters are rendered [[extinct]]&mdash;particularly in SLASH'EM where non-humanoid monsters never leave death drops.  In order to guarantee an eventual escape, a hero would need to exploit a monster capable of casting [[summon nasties]], which does not respect extinction.
 ===Sporkhack===