User:Jonadab/Scratchpad - Revision history

Jonadab: Move the Dungeon Overhaul proposal off my scratchpad to clear it.

2024-03-19T20:22:15Z

Move the Dungeon Overhaul proposal off my scratchpad to clear it.

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Jonadab: /* Tribute Level */

2017-10-07T19:27:03Z

‎Tribute Level

Jonadab: /* Dungeons of Doom, Lower */

2017-10-07T19:11:16Z

‎Dungeons of Doom, Lower

Jonadab: /* Nabokos */

2017-10-02T19:50:04Z

‎Nabokos

Jonadab: /* 3D Maze */ outline level adjustment.

2017-10-02T19:47:13Z

‎3D Maze: outline level adjustment.

Jonadab: /* Sokoban */ Parallel Branches

2017-10-02T19:43:11Z

‎Sokoban: Parallel Branches

Jonadab: /* Dungeons of Doom, Early */

2017-10-02T19:03:37Z

‎Dungeons of Doom, Early

Jonadab: /* Gnomish Mines */ Vlad's Entrance.

2017-10-02T18:35:17Z

‎Gnomish Mines: Vlad's Entrance.

Jonadab: /* Gnomish Mines */

2017-10-02T18:30:29Z

‎Gnomish Mines

Jonadab: /* About This Document */ Add reference to another set of comments.

2017-10-02T13:17:55Z

‎About This Document: Add reference to another set of comments.

@@ Line 373: / Line 373: @@
 === Tribute Level ===
-There will now be a "bank" of several possible tribute
+Developer time permitting (but at lower priority than many of the other changes proposed), there will now be a "bank" of several possible tribute levels, each one being a tribute to a particular roguelike game other than NetHack.  In any given game you get one.  The Rogue level is retained as one of these possibilities.
-Each tribute level will have its own floor layout style
+Each tribute level will have its own floor layout style designed to look like the other game's levels, its own symbol mappings to resemble the other game, its own monster generation rate and set of rules for which monsters can generate, its own object generation rules, and its own set of special features.
-The Rogue level itself does not need to change, IMO.  It's
+The Rogue level itself does not need to change, IMO.  It's unique enough to be interesting for some players and, being only one level, is and quick to breeze through for the rest: there's nothing difficult about it, and it takes like two minutes to fully explore.  Also, the fact that it has not kept up with all the most recent changes in the game is kind of the point here; updating and enhancing the level as part of a dungeon overhaul seems like it would spoil that dynamic.  In particular, the Rogue level should be exempt from new features such as non-rectangular rooms, new special rooms, etc.  The main special feature of the Rogue level is the guaranteed fake bones pile with the cheap plastic amulet.
-An Angband tribute level might be reasonable to introduce as
+An Angband tribute level might be reasonable to introduce as another possibility.  It should obviously be larger than a normal NetHack level and scroll as you explore it and will use a generation algorithm designed to make it look like a typical Angband level.  Obviously the Angband level would be non-persistent, though this could perhaps be implemented by writing code to remove all the monsters and (non-unique) objects, reset all the terrain, and regenerate the level whenever the player arrives.
-Would a Crawl tribute level be practical at all?  ADOM?
+An ADOM tribute level would likely need to refer to a particular dungeon in ADOM, perhaps something made to resemble (one level only of) the infinite dungeon or, if it doesn't create difficulty problems, (one level of) the puppy cave.
 Larn?  Others?  These are questions I cannot answer, because
-I am not enough of a gamer to have played all the games.
+Would a Crawl tribute level be practical at all?  Larn?  Others?  These are questions I cannot answer, because I am not enough of a gamer to have played all the games.  (I've attempted DCSS but have not gotten very far in it.)
 === Medusa's Island ===

@@ Line 356: / Line 356: @@
 === Dungeons of Doom, Lower ===
-Below the Sokoban entrance, the player may begin to
+Below the entrances to the Parallel Branches, the player may begin to encounter a wider variety of special rooms than was common
-encounter a wider variety of special rooms than was common
+in version 3.6.  (Shaped rooms, mentioned previously, can occur here with the same rules as earlier and can be special rooms if that doesn't cause bugs.)
-Shaped rooms, mentioned previously, can occur here with
+The bug that causes antholes and cockatrice nests to barely ever be generated will be fixed, and their minimum starting depth will be reduced.  I can imagine a player reaching dungeon level 12 and still being unprepared to deal with ants, but such a scenario would necessarily be abnormal in some way, perhaps due to conduct play, poor strategy, or RNG disfavor realized through multiple trap doors.  In a typical game, it is reasonable for antholes to start showing up as early as DL11 or two levels below Delphi, whichever is earlier.  Cockatrice nests should be possible by DL14, if not sooner, while they still have the potential to be dangerous and not just a free source of petrifying corpses.
-The bug that causes antholes and cockatrice nests to barely
+Dragon halls, if we don't wish to reserve them for Gehennom, seem like an obvious enhancement and could feature (sleeping) Great Dragons and normal adult dragons (and possibly baby dragons, maybe even dragon eggs) of the same color, and thematic loot.  Great Dragons are a step up from normal adult dragons.  Besides having higher stats and so being harder to kill, they also have more powerful attacks, possibly including breath attacks that are only partially resistable and/or not rendered entirely harmless by reflection (like what the wand balance proposal suggests), or themed melee attacks (e.g., for red dragons a melee attack that does fire damage), so that reflection does not make them entirely harmless to the player. Thematic loot would include gold and gems of course but also some items themed to the element corresponding with the dragons' color, e.g., fire-themed items (scroll of fire, wand of fire, ring of fire resistance, potions of oil or booze, and maybe even a spellbook of fireball) if the dragons are red, poison-themed items if the dragons are green, acid-themed if yellow, etc.  Dragon halls can start occurring a few levels before Medusa and should be given priority (for being generated) over the low-level "easy" special room types.  For example, if a leprechaun hall would be generated, but the dungeon level is deep enough for a dragon hall, the dragon hall should be generated instead of the leprechaun hall.
-Dragon halls, if we don't wish to reserve them for Gehennom,
+Statue halls are another possibility: the walls would be lined with statues, a few of which would be statue traps.  These would mainly be for flavor, however; the gameplay significance of statue traps that are obvious and can be easily avoided is basically nil.
-Statue halls are another possibility: the walls would be
+At least one variant has pool rooms, which have a one-tile-wide floor around the edge, and the middle is filled with either water (POOL terrain) or lava.  These could be considered for occasional inclusion.
-Additional types of special rooms should also be added if we
+I like the way Brogue has puzzle rooms, but the specific details of how they work in Brogue are not a good fit for NetHack, so if we wanted to do something like that we would have to design them basically from scratch.  As yet I have not thought through exactly how something like that might work in NetHack.
-can think of more good ones.  (I like the way Brogue has
-puzzle rooms, but the specific details of how they work in
+Additional types of special rooms should also be added if we can think of more good ones.
 === Tribute Level ===

@@ Line 350: / Line 350: @@
 Another possibility for one of the Parallel Branches would be a three-dimensional maze.  A Perl script has been written that demonstrates an example of what such a maze might potentially look like<ref>https://github.com/tsadok/level-generator-perlscripts/blob/master/3dmaze.pl</ref>.
-=== Nabokos ===
+==== Nabokos ====
-I originally proposed a new branch that runs upward, parallel to Sokoban (the entrance being on the same level with the Sokoban entrance, in the main dungeon directly below Delphi).  This branch branch would have been five levels tall -- one level taller than Sokoban, so that its top level would be directly above the Sokoban zoo.
+Nabokos was my original proposal for a parallel-to-Sokoban branch, but the details were boring, so I am now withdrawing that specific branch proposal.  We can do better.
 === Dungeons of Doom, Lower ===

@@ Line 346: / Line 346: @@
 ais523 proposes an alternative-to-Sokoban branch called The [https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Ais523/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal#The_Arena Arena].  I am undecided as to what I think of this, I think mostly because I have not thought through the possibilities for what its specific match-ups or challenges would be.  With some work and attention to detail with regard to this, I think the idea might have potential, but I'm not yet sure.  If so, the Arena could be one of the Parallel Branches.
-=== 3D Maze ===
+==== 3D Maze ====
 Another possibility for one of the Parallel Branches would be a three-dimensional maze.  A Perl script has been written that demonstrates an example of what such a maze might potentially look like<ref>https://github.com/tsadok/level-generator-perlscripts/blob/master/3dmaze.pl</ref>.

@@ Line 288: / Line 288: @@
 He also proposes making the Big Room always generate.  I'm not sure I see the point of this.  To me, the Big Room is not strategically important enough to need to be guaranteed in this manner, and I like having some special levels that don't always appear, for variety.
-=== Sokoban ===
+=== Parallel Branches ===
-The level below Delphi now contains three up stairs.  The regular one leads to the Delphi level.  The second one, a branch stair, leads to Sokoban, as before.  The third one, also a branch stair, now leads to a second optional branch that runs parallel to Sokoban and connects to the Sokoban zoo at the top.  This new branch, which I am provisionally
+The level below Delphi now contains four up stairs (one regular and three branch).  The regular one leads to the Delphi level.  One branch stair leads to Sokoban, as before.  Two other branch stairs now lead up to two additional optional branches that run parallel to Sokoban.  All three of these Parallel Branches connect at the top, reaching the same prize goal level.
-Level difficulty (for monster generation purposes) for all four levels in Sokoban will be the same as that of the main dungeon level with the branch stair to Sokoban; whereas, for Nabokos the difficulty will increase as you go further into the level.
+It is worth noting here that the statue of Perseus (at Medusa's Island) is now guaranteed to contain both a shield of reflection and a bag (usually a plain sack, or possibly in some cases an oilskin sack), so players who press on can be assured of finding both these items there.  The amulet of reflection or the bag of holding that you can get by completing one of the Parallel Branches would be nicer, and could be obtained without going so deep; but it is possible to live without.  In the past, if you skipped Sokoban, you risked facing the Castle with no bag and/or no reflection.  This is now no longer the case.
-Each level of Sokoban is to have at least three versions, preferably four or more.  Perhaps some of the better ones from Fourk may be cherry-picked, or others can be designed.
+==== Sokoban ====
 There are several reasons why I feel more variants of the Sokoban levels would be a Good Thing:
@@ Line 302: / Line 302: @@
 # The levels are of entirely fixed design with no random component at all to their layout or terrain.  One of the most important things that gives NetHack its high replay value is that randomly generated content makes the game different every time.  Having entirely-non-random levels undermines that somewhat.  Non-random level layout is desirable in some cases, with Sokoban being a rather obvious example (alternatives that might work well in other branches, such as including random areas within the level, are less viable here); but the "same every time" aspect can be and should be mitigated somewhat by having multiple variants of each level.  Such variety is good provided that balance and playability are maintained, because it increases replay value.
 # The Sokoban levels occur fairly early in the dungeon and are often strategically advantageous to enter as soon as possible, and so players tend to encounter them frequently.  In this regard, Minetown is similar; the dev team appears to have realized this about Minetown, and so it has way more than two variants; and while it is arguable that not all of the Minetown variants are as genuinely different from one another as would be ideal (an issue addressed separately below), the total amount of variety is still quite a bit more than for e.g. the first level of Sokoban.  Also, most of the Minetown variants have at least minor random components, typically around the stairs, which serves to mitigate the sameness somewhat.
-# The levels are physically small and so the entire level is instantly recognizable and becomes extremely familiar after a relatively small number of sightings, exacerbating the game-to-game "sameness" issue.
+# The Sokoban levels are physically small and also premapped, and so the entire level is instantly recognizable and becomes extremely familiar after a relatively small number of sightings, exacerbating the game-to-game "sameness" issue.
-# It doesn't increase difficulty significantly.  As a tautology, players fall into one of two categories:  either they routinely consult spoilers for Sokoban or else not.  Sokoban puzzle difficulty is more or less irrelevant for those players who do use spoilers (and it may be reasonably assumed that spoilers will quickly emerge for the new puzzles); and for players who do not use spoilers, the difficulty of each puzzle itself, and the number of puzzles that must be solved in each game, are more important to overall difficulty than the amount of game-to-game variety.  (There is a third category, players who make their own spoilers.  But these players are clearly the exception.)
+# It doesn't increase difficulty significantly.  As a tautology, players fall into one of two categories:  either they routinely consult spoilers for Sokoban or else not.  Sokoban puzzle difficulty is more or less irrelevant for those players who do use spoilers (and it may be reasonably assumed that spoilers will quickly emerge for the new puzzles; granted, this argument falls apart if Sokoban levels are generated procedurally on the fly; in that case we must rely on the players' ability to take one of the other Parallel Branches).  For players who do not use spoilers, the difficulty of each puzzle itself, and the number of puzzles that must be solved in each game, are more important to overall difficulty than the amount of game-to-game variety.  (There is a third category, players who make their own spoilers.  But these players are clearly the exception.)
-Additionally, the luck penalties for breaking the Sokoban rules shall only apply if the character is NOT carrying a luckstone.  Any player who has been to Mine's End and picked up the luckstone there should be able to breeze through Sokoban using a pick-axe and the two provided scrolls of earth, with no luck penalty.  (A player who happens upon a luckstone on the floor before reaching the Sokoban entrance can do the same thing.)  Additionally, once a given Sokoban level has been completed, its luck penalties and other Sokoban-specific restrictions (e.g., against rolling boulders diagonally) shall be lifted.
+The fourth level of Sokoban, instead of the prize, now contains the branch up stairs to the single prize/goal level that serves all of the Parallel Branches.
-Third, as discussed elsewhere in this proposal, the average number of wands and rings in the Mines will be very slightly increased, so that players who choose to forego Sokoban (possibly completing Nabokos instead) will not be missing as large a percentage of the available wands and rings in the early game.  I propose that each filler level in the Mines has a 50% chance of an additional random ring and, independently, a 50% chance of an additional random wand.  (It is understood that players who do both Sokoban and the Mines will thus get a few more rings and wands in the early game than was typical in version 3.6; but I do not believe this difference will be significantly unbalancing, since rings and wands also occur as death drops anyhow and become more common later in the game.)
+Additionally, once a given Sokoban level has been completed, its luck penalties and other Sokoban-specific restrictions (e.g., against rolling boulders diagonally) shall be lifted.
-Finally, the statue of Perseus is now guaranteed to contain both a shield of reflection and a bag (usually a plain sack, or possibly in some cases an oilskin sack), so players who press on can be assured of finding both these items there.  The amulet of reflection or the bag of holding from Sokoban would be nicer, and could be obtained without going so deep, but it is possible to live without.  In the past, if you skipped Sokoban, you risked facing the Castle with no bag and/or no
+Further, as discussed elsewhere in this proposal, the average number of wands and rings in the Mines will be very slightly increased, so that players who choose to forego Sokoban will not be missing as large a percentage of the available wands and rings in the early game.  I propose that each filler level in the Mines has a 50% chance of an additional random ring and, independently, a 50% chance of an additional random wand.  (It is understood that players who do both Sokoban and the Mines will thus get a few more rings and wands in the early game than was typical in version 3.6; but I do not believe this difference will be significantly unbalancing, since rings and wands also occur as death drops anyhow and become more common later in the game.)
-All four Sokoban levels are to be made bones-eligible.  However, the bones option shall default to 1, which means "only load bones on normal levels" (where "normal" levels are mostly the levels where bones were possible in NetHack 3.6).  If the bones option is set to 0, that means never load bones at all, and setting it to 2 means they can be loaded (very nearly) anywhere.  Only players who have deliberately set the bones option to 2 can ever see Sokoban bones.  By default, Sokoban bones will not be loaded.
+All four Sokoban levels are to be made bones-eligible.  However, the bones option shall default to 1, which means only load bones on normal levels.  If the bones option is set to 0, that means never load bones at all, and setting it to 2 means they can be loaded even on special levels.  Only players who have deliberately set the bones option to 2 can ever see Sokoban bones.  By default, Sokoban bones will not be loaded.
-Finally, every version of every Sokoban level is to be given a name, which is to show up in #overview by default, once the level has been visited, unless the player renames it (using #annotate).  This minor change has no impact within the game itself but is intended to facilitate conversations about the game.  Currently we find ourselves referring to things like "Sokoban level 2a", which indeed is slightly
+Finally, every version of every Sokoban level is to be given a name, which is to show up in #overview by default, once the level has been visited, unless the player renames it (using #annotate).  This minor change has no impact within the game itself but is intended to facilitate conversations about the game.  Currently we find ourselves referring to things like "Sokoban level 2a", which indeed is slightly ambiguous since not all spoilers present the levels in the same order.  (In particular, Steelypips and the wiki are at odds about this nomenclature.)  Giving them all official names does away with that.
 The proposed new levels will be given names later in this document, as they are presented.  However, I propose here names for the existing levels:
@@ Line 348: / Line 340: @@
 Note that these names are provisional suggestions.  I'm not attached to these specific names.  Someone may be able to think of better names for some of them.
-Whatever new Sokoban levels are added shall have names as well.
+Whatever new Sokoban levels are added shall have names as well (unless they are all generated randomly at runtime, in which case players will just have to take screenshots or something).
 === Nabokos ===

@@ Line 278: / Line 278: @@
 Currently this is only relevant for the first Mines level.)
-One enhancement that is easy to make, adds a little variety and visual interest to the layouts, and does not disrupt game balance to any significant extent, is to allow some rooms to have a non-rectangular shape.  There are at least two different existing implementations of this: a procedural one in Fourk, and the one in Un that is based on a library of stock non-rectangular rooms.  Either or both could be considered as possible approaches here.
+One enhancement that is relatively easy to make, adds a little variety and visual interest to the layouts, and does not disrupt game balance to any significant extent, is to allow some rooms to have a non-rectangular shape.  There are at least two different existing implementations of this: a procedural one in Fourk, and the one in Un that is based on a library of stock non-rectangular rooms.  They give somewhat different results.  Either or both could be considered as possible approaches here.
-Delphi is in principle fine as it stands, except that the Oracle should charge less.  (Players reaching this depth in the dungeon should be able to afford at least one major consultation, if they have picked up all the gold so far.)  Also, the Oracle's repertoire of consultations could be expanded somewhat.  If desired, minor alternate versions of the special room at the center can be considered, possibly including one that is diamond-shaped rather than an orthogonally aligned rectangle, but the basic idea of the level is already Working As Intended.
+Delphi is in principle fine as it stands, except that the Oracle should charge less.  (Players reaching this depth in the dungeon should be able to afford at least one major consultation, if they have picked up all the gold on the floor so far.)  Also, the Oracle's repertoire of consultations could be expanded somewhat.  If desired, minor alternate versions of the special room at the center can be considered, possibly including one that is diamond-shaped rather than an orthogonally aligned rectangle, but the basic idea of the level is already Working As Intended.  Note that, because this is a special level, bones will no longer be loaded here by default; if players want to encounter bones on special levels, they must set the bones option to 2.
 The Big Room, if generated (same probability as in 3.6), should be at least two levels below Delphi.  I don't care whether this is accomplished by changing the max depth of Delphi or the min depth of the Big Room.  (Fourk does the latter.)  One way or the other, it should always be possible to reach the Sokoban entrance without going into the Big Room.
 === Sokoban ===

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, 2 October 2017
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	All versions of Mine's End are now eligible to save bones, but bones are not loaded for Mine's End unless the bones option is set to 2. With a default setting of 1, the player will never see Mine's End bones, the same as any other special level.		All versions of Mine's End are now eligible to save bones, but bones are not loaded for Mine's End unless the bones option is set to 2. With a default setting of 1, the player will never see Mine's End bones, the same as any other special level.
		+
		+	Others have proposed moving the entrance to Vlad's tower, or some other level containing him, to the Gnomish Mines. I am not strongly opposed to this but also do not feel that it is necessary. With a little buffing, I think Vlad and his tower can be made reasonable later in the game, close to their present location; and I think the Mines contain an adequate amount of special interesting stuff as they stand, or will do if Mimic of the Mines is replaced with something better; I don't think the Mines really need Vlad, nor do I think he really needs to be that early in the game. With that said, this isn't a very important issue to me. If consensus shifts towards moving Vlad, I'll put up a token argument and then live with it, because I have bigger fish to fry.

	=== Dungeons of Doom, Early ===		=== Dungeons of Doom, Early ===

@@ Line 251: / Line 251: @@
 The real (play balance) reason for giving light sources to dwarves, not Gnomes, is that dwarves are fewer in number (in the Mines) than Gnomes, so it's a less drastic change.  This is also the reason for only giving them light sources sometimes, and only in the Mines, and usually just a single candle.
-For an example of a variant that gives stacks of candles to Gnomes, see NetHack4.  This is clearly too much, as the player can easily burn two candles at once the entire time they're in the Mines, not bothering to turn them off in lit areas, and still have dozens of them left over afterward.  There's a difference between having enough candles that the player can actually use them for light some of the time (which nobody has done in vanilla in the entire history of ever), versus having so many candles that they're effectively an infinite resources, as in NetHack4.  Somewhere in between, we should be able to find balance.
+For an example of a variant that gives stacks of candles to Gnomes, see NetHack4.  This is clearly too much, as the player can easily burn two candles at once the entire time they're in the Mines, not bothering to turn them off in lit areas, and still have dozens of them left over afterward.  There's a difference between having enough candles that the player can actually use them for light some of the time (which ever did in 3.4.3 because they were so rare and lasted so short a time), versus having so many candles that they're effectively an infinite resources, as in NetHack4.  Somewhere in between, we should be able to find balance.
-Minetown in principle is to be roughly the same as in version 3.4.3 (note: not 3.6), with a few tweaks.  The randomly-generated portions of Frontier Town, Town Square, Alley Town, College Town, and Bazaar Town are now cavern-like, rather than being composed of rooms and corridors.  Additionally, all doors in Minetown are well-oiled, so you will not hear them open from outside line-of-sight.  Due to these two changes, players
+Minetown in principle is to be roughly the same as in version 3.4.3 (note: not 3.6), with a few tweaks.  The randomly-generated portions of Frontier Town, Town Square, Alley Town, College Town, and Bazaar Town are now cavern-like, rather than being composed of rooms and corridors.  Additionally, all doors in Minetown are well-oiled, so you will not hear them open from outside line-of-sight.  Due to these two changes, players arriving via the stairs may not always immediately know that they have reached the Minetown level.
-Perhaps a more controversial change, I propose that one general store be guaranteed to be generated in Frontier Town, Town Square, and Bazaar Town.  This is intended to ensure (barring bones -- more on that in a moment) that the player always has the option to do price-checking in a
+Perhaps a more controversial change, I propose that one general store be guaranteed to be generated in Frontier Town, Town Square, and Bazaar Town.  This is intended to ensure (barring bones -- more on that in a moment) that the player always has the option to do price-checking in a reasonably convenient manner that does not require credit cloning.  Just needing to drag everything to the level is enough hassle.  The reason for excluding College Town from this list is simply that the guaranteed book shop allows price-checking scrolls and thus unambiguously identify the uniquely-priced scroll of identify, which is adequate to bootstrap the identification process.  (The other three Minetown variants already guarantee the general store, so no change is required there.)
-Orctown, though I kind of like it as a level (out of context), very clearly does not belong as a Minetown variant, because it's balance characteristics are grossly different from the other Minetown levels, both in terms of risk and also reward (and in opposite directions, no less).  It could perhaps be converted, with minor changes, into a Mine's End level, instead (although, I personally feel that Khor's Orc Temple version of Mine's End is better).
+Orctown, though I kind of like it as a level (out of context), very clearly does not belong as a Minetown variant, because its balance characteristics are grossly different from the other Minetown levels, both in terms of risk and also reward (and in opposite directions, no less): not only does getting this Minetown potentially deny the user the chance to get any divine protection before reaching the Castle, but worse, it also _simultaneously_ may deny the user any chance to safely identify most kinds of objects (wands are a notable exception) without using a wish to do so (and, note, I intend for wishes to be significantly less common at Castle depth).  Without the chance to price-check scrolls and find the scroll of identify, the player is left with a range of remarkably bad choices: use-identifying items completely blind like a rank beginner is probably the least painful of these options, and although some roguelikes are designed for and balanced around this strategy (see e.g. Brogue), NetHack is very clearly not, as it goes out of its way to put game-ruining items in just about every item-appearance group.  (The major exceptions are wands, courtesy of the engraving trick, non-cursed weapons and armor, blessed books, and kick-tested gray stones.)  Scrolls are important in NetHack.  Illiterate is one of the harder conducts for mostly this reason, Elbereth being a secondary consideration.  Randomly preventing the player from using any of them until the Castle is cruel in the extreme, especially as the player will inevitably keep hoping against hope for a shop, and the odds of finding one keep getting worse and worse the further into the dungeon you get.  Just killing the player outright about 5% of the time when they reach Minetown would be less torturous.  (Orctown occurs more than 5% of the time in 3.6; but sometimes you already found a shop in the main dungeon.)  Combining this with the lack of a temple to buy protection until the Valley is just mean.
-Additional changes are proposed mainly in order to meaningfully differentiate the various Minetown versions from one another (which may have been a large part of the original aim of orctown).  It is my hope that this can be done without altering the overall balance quality of Minetown.  These changes are detailed later, in the proposed levels
+Orctown could perhaps be converted, with minor changes, into a Mine's End level, instead; but I personally feel that Khor's Orc Temple version of Mine's End is more interesting and therefore better, so my preference is to just revert Orctown.
-I am tempted to say that Minetown bones are not loaded by default; players who want to be able to encounter bones in Minetown must set the bones option to 2.  In some ways this complicates the meaning of the setting (for most other levels, save perhaps Delphi, 1 means load bones only if the level was bones-eligible in 3.6; setting it to 2 means they can be loaded even on levels that were not eligible in 3.6), but in
+Additional changes to the Mines are proposed mainly in order to meaningfully differentiate the various Minetown versions from one another (see the specific level sections later in this document).  It is my hope that this can be done without altering the overall balance quality of Minetown.
-Mine's End is to be similar to 3.6, except that the Mimic of the Mines is to be replaced with something else, perhaps Khor's Orc Temple version of Mine's End.  Mimic has always been the boring version of Mine's End, both in terms of danger (it poses no more risk than a Mines filler level) and also in terms of reward (apart from the luckstone itself, it has little to offer).  At least the two are in balance (less risk but also less reward), but I feel that Mimic is not very well in line with the other versions, and its design is visually not very interesting, and on top of that it's extremely similar to other levels found elsewhere in the game.  So I propose that it be replaced.
+Since Minetown is a special level (and one of the more strategically important ones at that), bones are not loaded here by default; players who want to be able to encounter bones in Minetown must set the bones option to 2.
-These enhancements are detailed in the proposed levels section, later.  All versions of Mine's End are now eligible to save bones, but bones are not loaded for Mine's End unless the bones option is set to 2.  With a
+Mine's End is to be similar to 3.6, except that the Mimic of the Mines is to be replaced with something else, perhaps Khor's Orc Temple version of Mine's End.  Mimic has always been the boring version of Mine's End, both in terms of danger (it poses no more risk than a Mines filler level, unless you are terrified of mimics for some reason) and also in terms of reward (apart from the luckstone itself, it has little to offer).  At least the two are in balance (less risk but also less reward), but I feel that Mimic is not very well in line with the other versions, and its design is visually not very interesting, and on top of that it's extremely similar to other levels found elsewhere in the game.  So I propose that it be replaced.
 default setting of 1, the player will never see Mine's End bones.
 === Dungeons of Doom, Early ===

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 rounds of revisions will be required.
-This version of the proposal was revised in 2017, after making the original, obsolete 2014 version of the proposal public<ref>http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/nethack-stuff/nethack-dungeon-overhaul-proposal-jonadab-001b.txt</ref><ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Jonadab/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal_Draft_1</ref>.  This revised version will include changes needed because the state of the art has changed in three years (e.g., 3.6 has already addressed certain issues and added certain features, such as wide mazes), as well as changes due to feedback from other variant developers and interested parties, including complete independent proposals by ais523<ref>http://nethack4.org/pastebin/dungeon-redesign.txt</ref><ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Ais523/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal</ref> and FIQ<ref>http://home.fiq.se/overhaul.txt</ref> and comments by aosdict<ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/DungeonOverhaul/Jonadab</ref>, Chris_ANG<ref>https://gist.github.com/Chris-plus-alphanumericgibberish/8be492edc05282c0933ce869e172ca7b</ref>, Elronnd<ref>https://elronnd.net/proposal.txt</ref>, and others.  However, this is still a preliminary draft and by no means final.  It is my hope that others will write their own proposals, leading to further revisions and refinements.
+This version of the proposal was revised in 2017, after making the original, obsolete 2014 version of the proposal public<ref>http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/nethack-stuff/nethack-dungeon-overhaul-proposal-jonadab-001b.txt</ref><ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Jonadab/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal_Draft_1</ref>.  This revised version will include changes needed because the state of the art has changed in three years (e.g., 3.6 has already addressed certain issues and added certain features, such as wide mazes), as well as changes due to feedback from other variant developers and interested parties, including complete independent proposals by ais523<ref>http://nethack4.org/pastebin/dungeon-redesign.txt</ref><ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Ais523/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal</ref> and FIQ<ref>http://home.fiq.se/overhaul.txt</ref> and comments by aosdict<ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/DungeonOverhaul/Jonadab</ref><ref>https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/DungeonOverhaul/ais523</ref>, Chris_ANG<ref>https://gist.github.com/Chris-plus-alphanumericgibberish/8be492edc05282c0933ce869e172ca7b</ref>, Elronnd<ref>https://elronnd.net/proposal.txt</ref>, and others.  However, this is still a preliminary draft and by no means final.  It is my hope that others will write their own proposals, leading to further revisions and refinements.
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