User:Phol ende wodan/Combat System Overhaul Draft 1 - Revision history

Phol ende wodan: Relocate flanking stuff from this proposal

2017-12-18T01:05:10Z

Relocate flanking stuff from this proposal

Phol ende wodan: Phol ende wodan moved page User:Phol ende wodan/Combat system overhaul to User:Phol ende wodan/Combat System Overhaul Draft 1 without leaving a redirect: Leaving this page as-is and now working to cut unnecessary things out

2017-12-18T00:10:12Z

Phol ende wodan moved page User:Phol ende wodan/Combat system overhaul to User:Phol ende wodan/Combat System Overhaul Draft 1 without leaving a redirect: Leaving this page as-is and now working to cut unnecessary things out

Phol ende wodan: Player-monster symmetry: no advantages at all

2017-11-06T23:45:15Z

Player-monster symmetry: no advantages at all

Phol ende wodan: /* Flanking */ "radially adjacent directions" --> "arc"

2017-09-25T22:32:34Z

‎Flanking: "radially adjacent directions" --> "arc"

Phol ende wodan: /* Defender bonus */ remove speed and merge protection

2017-09-08T13:35:02Z

‎Defender bonus: remove speed and merge protection

Phol ende wodan: Clarify melee multishot with unseen monster

2017-09-07T14:50:54Z

Clarify melee multishot with unseen monster

Phol ende wodan: Erosion is no longer a to-hit penalty; it is a damage penalty

2017-09-03T22:52:09Z

Erosion is no longer a to-hit penalty; it is a damage penalty

Phol ende wodan: /* Bonus tables */ fix negative number

2017-09-01T21:58:34Z

‎Bonus tables: fix negative number

Phol ende wodan: Add bonus tables, weapon enchantment no longer affects to-hit

2017-09-01T21:57:59Z

Add bonus tables, weapon enchantment no longer affects to-hit

Show changes

Phol ende wodan: /* To-hit */ Retitle section

2017-08-31T17:19:53Z

‎To-hit: Retitle section

@@ Line 222: / Line 222: @@
 === Flanking ===
-A defender being flanked by multiple attackers will be easier to hit. This applies primarily to the player, but also to monsters that may be flanked by pets. When a defending creature is under attack, every monster is eligible to contribute to flanking if:
+[[User:Phol ende wodan/FlankingProposal|Relocated.]]
 == To-hit formula ==

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-This is a proposal for an overhaul to NetHack's entire to-hit, armor, and damage reduction system. The current system originates from early versions of D&D; this is great for D&D players but not great for game balance. On top of this, there are many adjustments made to the original system - for instance, battles in early D&D are generally several-on-one or several-on-several instead of one-on-thousands, and enchanted gear is rare and hard to come by - but the net effect is to create a crufty system of mechanics that does not work well in the modern game. I believe that the best way to restore balance is by removing the existing system and building up a new one from scratch, instead of trying to tweak lots of values and algorithms to try and get it right.
+This is a proposal for an overhaul to NetHack's entire to-hit, armor, and damage reduction system. The current system originates from early versions of D&D; this is great for D&D players but not great for NetHack game balance. On top of this, there are many adjustments made to the original system - for instance, battles in early D&D are generally several-on-one or several-on-several instead of one-on-thousands, and enchanted gear is rare and hard to come by - but the net effect is to create a crufty system of mechanics that does not work well in the modern game. I believe that the best way to restore balance is by removing the existing system and building up a new one from scratch, instead of trying to change lots of values and algorithms to try and get it right.
 This is a work in progress and it should be considered a first draft. All of the primary mechanics are present, though, and I don't expect to edit this much more apart from tweaking numbers and minor rules. Balances are likely off. Please post on the talk page to tell me how something here is wrong.
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 # '''Persistent flat bonuses should either be small or eliminated.''' Though at the same time, there should not be a bunch of random dice rolls, because high variance isn't good.
 # '''Armor and shield skills should be introduced.''' Roles should have different amounts of competency in using armor and shields.
-# '''Player-monster symmetry should be preserved for the most part''', though the player might get a few advantages which will serve to compensate for the fact that there is one player fighting a horde of monsters.
+# '''Player-monster symmetry should be preserved.'''. The fact that there is one player fighting a horde of monsters should not affect the actual combat system, and there should be no advantages or disadvantages given exclusively to the player. The proper way to balance one player versus a horde of monsters is to balance monsters and their difficulty appropriately.
 # '''The effect of Luck should be severely reduced.''' It's an bonus awarded only to the player, for one, and it hurts player-monster symmetry if the player has lots of advantages unavailable to monsters. Even doing what some variants implement and using 1d(Luck) seems too powerful - it can be assumed that a midgame character will have maximized their Luck and it will stay high for the rest of the game; 1d(Luck) has a high average of +7 and a high variance which makes it harder to balance. Other uses of Luck should not be influenced by this.
 # '''There should be variety in fighting styles for all roles'''. Most fighting styles currently tend towards twoweaponing, or single-weaponing with an artifact if that is unavailable. The player should always be given different, but good, strategic options for fighting.

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 * it is not currently helpless, not caught in a trap, not fleeing, has at least one attack that is not AT_NONE, is not a long worm tail segment, and is adjacent to the target. (I'd like to have ranged flanking threats and polearm-range flanking threats as well, but it seems hard to define - a monster wielding a launcher or carrying several daggers or something, and in line with the player?)
-There are only eight primary directions of attack in NetHack. The amount by which a defender is flanked can be quantified by the maximum amount of radially adjacent directions in which the defender is ''not'' threatened by anything.
+There are only eight primary directions of attack in NetHack. The amount by which a defender is flanked can be quantified by the maximum arc in which the defender is ''not'' threatened by anything.
-Balancing out the flanking bonus slightly are walls or other spaces adjacent to the defender that the defender cannot move to; a defender in the open can dodge more easily than if they are cornered or backed up against a wall. The accessibility of terrain is determined by whether the player can move there without consequence (water or lava are accessible if the player is levitating, for example.)
+Balancing out the flanking bonus slightly are walls or other spaces adjacent to the defender that the defender cannot move to; a defender in the open can dodge more easily than if they are cornered or backed up against a wall. The accessibility of terrain is determined by whether the defender can move there without consequence (water or lava are accessible if the defender is levitating, for example.)
 Specifically, flanking advantage is calculated as the following, and given as a bonus to the attacker:
-* Compute the largest number of radially adjacent directions in which no monsters are threatening the defender, and subtract it from 7 (there is always an attack coming from one direction, so 7 is the maximum possible angle).
+* Compute the largest arc in which no monsters are threatening the defender, and subtract it from 7 (there is always an attack coming from one direction, so 7 is the maximum possible angle).
 * If the space behind the defender - in the opposite direction of the attack - is blocked by a trap or terrain, add 1. (This has the odd edge case that a player surrounded by xorns or ghosts embedded in walls may give the attacker a larger bonus than 7, which is normally not possible).
 * If the above case happens and the defender's movement to either of the space radially adjacent to the one "behind" the defender is blocked (by monsters as well as traps and terrain), add 1/2 for each square.
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-There are 7 radially adjacent directions with no threat (northeast clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 0 + 0/2 = 0.
+The largest arc with no threat is 7 (northeast clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 0 + 0/2 = 0.
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-There are 6 radially adjacent directions with no threat (east clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 6) + 0 + 0/2 = 1.
+The largest arc with no threat is 6 (east clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 6) + 0 + 0/2 = 1.
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-There are 4 radially adjacent directions with no threat (south clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 4) + 0 + 0/2 = 3.
+The largest arc with no threat is 4 (south clockwise to northwest). Flanking bonus = (7 - 4) + 0 + 0/2 = 3.
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-There are 3 radially adjacent directions with no threat (southwest clockwise to northwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 0 + 0/2 = 4.
+The largest arc with no threat is 3 (southwest clockwise to northwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 0 + 0/2 = 4.
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-There are 0 radially adjacent directions with no threat (southwest clockwise to northwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 0) + 0 + 0/2 = 7.
+The largest arc with no threat is 0 (there is no direction with no threat). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 0) + 0 + 0/2 = 7.
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-There are 7 radially adjacent directions with no threat (northeast clockwise to northwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and both spaces on either side of it are also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 1 + 2/2 = 2.
+The largest arc with no threat is 7 (northeast clockwise to northwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and both spaces on either side of it are also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 1 + 2/2 = 2.
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 --.
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-There are 7 radially adjacent directions with no threat (northeast clockwise to northwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and one of the spaces on either side of it is also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 1 + 1/2 = 1.5.
+The largest arc with no threat is 7 (northeast clockwise to northwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and one of the spaces on either side of it is also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 1 + 1/2 = 1.5.
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-There are 3 radially adjacent directions with no threat (southeast clockwise to southwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and both of the spaces on either side of it are also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 1 + 2/2 = 6.
+The largest arc with no threat is 3 (southeast clockwise to southwest), and the space behind the defender is blocked, and both of the spaces on either side of it are also blocked. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 1 + 2/2 = 6.
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-There are 3 radially adjacent directions with no threat (southeast clockwise to southwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 0 + 0/2 = 4.
+The largest arc with no threat is 3 (southeast clockwise to southwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 3) + 0 + 0/2 = 4.
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-There are 4 radially adjacent directions with no threat (east clockwise to southwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 4) + 0 + 0/2 = 3. The flanking bonus seems kind of low for a player so hemmed in, but it's worthwhile to point out that both of the jackals will get the full +2 when they attack for a flanking bonus of 5.
+The largest arc with no threat is 4 (east clockwise to southwest). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 4) + 0 + 0/2 = 3. The flanking bonus seems kind of low for a player so hemmed in, but it's worthwhile to point out that both of the jackals will get the full +2 when they attack for a flanking bonus of 5.
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-There are 7 radially adjacent directions with no threat (southeast clockwise to northeast). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 0 + 0/2 = 0.
+The largest arc with no threat is 7 (southeast clockwise to northeast). The space behind the defender is not a trap or terrain, so it does not get any extra bonus. Flanking bonus = (7 - 7) + 0 + 0/2 = 0.
 == To-hit formula ==

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 ==== Defender bonus ====
 * Start at the defender's monster form evasiveness.
-* If the defender has [[protection]] (the sum of divine protection and spell protection), add that amount. Note that divine protection is harder to obtain and has a maximum of 6, as described below.
+* If the defender has [[protection]] (the greater of divine protection and spell protection), add that amount. Note that divine protection is harder to obtain and has a maximum of 6, as described below.
 * Add (2 - defender size). (This is exactly the same as vanilla.)
 * If the defender is wearing a shield and is not [[helpless]], add the shield bonus, as described above.

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 ** No strength bonus is applied to the second twoweapon attack.
 ** The second twoweapon attack makes an independent to-hit roll. The first attack need not hit; it always tries to make the second attack. 3.6 does this.
-* Multishot does not work at melee range; you will only shoot one projectile.
+* Multishot does not work at melee range; you will only shoot one projectile. It doesn't matter if there is a monster at melee range that you can't see - you still only shoot one.
 * Two-handed weapons get a couple buffs:
 ** Two-handed weapons apply your melee strength bonus to damage twice.

← Older revision	Revision as of 00:10, 18 December 2017
(No difference)

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 # A final value of zero (all bonuses and penalties canceling out) should result in an average 50% chance to hit.
 # An attack should always have a non-zero chance to hit and a non-zero chance to miss.
-# A small advantage to the attacker means that the attacks will miss a little less than half the time. A large advantage to the attacker means that the attacks will usually hit.
+# A small advantage to the attacker means that the attacks will miss a little less than half the time. A large advantage to the attacker means that the attacks will usually hit. A large advantage to the defender means that the attacks will usually miss.
 To do this, rather than using a uniform distribution like the 1d20 roll to-hit currently uses, generate a Gaussian random number with mean 0 (standard deviation will depend on what ends up being a reasonable range of bonuses). A distribution of this shape satisfies the above constraints, and it does so smoothly and continuously. It also enables the various bonuses and penalties to meaningfully be non-integer values (divisions below are only integer division if it's being used for a die roll or something).
@@ Line 387: / Line 387: @@
 * If the weapon is an artifact and has a specific bonus versus the defender, add that bonus. (Also counts with artifact launchers firing ammo).
 * If the attacker is firing ammo from a launcher, add the launcher's enchantment.
 * If the attacker is wearing a ring or rings of increase accuracy, add their enchantment. Unlike most other things, this is a flat bonus.
 * Add 1d(Luck/2) for the attacker's Luck.
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 AC, of course, starts at zero for a naked human, and monsters have various positive amounts of it to compensate for the fact that their body reduces damage naturally without needing armor. However, since AC no longer plays a role in evasiveness, it will generally be less than it is in vanilla; instead of the +3 a jackal would get by transferring it over from vanilla, a jackal has no natural damage reduction. When assigning AC to a monster, consider how much its body naturally absorbs or negates damage. In general, AC should probably not be very high for monsters that have non-negative ACs in vanilla, since they would not have reduced any damage from a successful hit.
 == Weapon rebalancing and fighting styles ==

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 |-
 |3
-|-1.75
+| -1.75
 |-
 |10

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 Monsters that receive a bonus from "shield skill" include orcs, dwarves, elves, and most humans (Basic), trained soldiers, watchmen, and angels (Skilled), and priests (Expert).
-== To-hit ==
+== Important to-hit factors ==
 === Evasiveness ===
 Evasiveness is an inherent value of a monster form that determines how easy it is to score a hit. It partially replaces monster base AC as a stat. Its natural value is zero, corresponding to AC 10 in vanilla (a naked human with no special skills or bonuses), but unlike AC, it increases as it improves. It should generally correlate with monster difficulty, though outliers might apply in special cases: a gelatinous cube would be less able to evade and so should have a lower evasiveness than a standard monster of its level, while killer bees are very good at evading and so should have higher evasiveness. (Perhaps the speed and size to-hit penalties can be appropriately balanced so that this stat isn't needed, but I don't really think so; I think the ability to tweak and fine-tune these values on a per-monster basis is a good thing.) All examples of evasiveness here will be integers, but as described below, there's no particular reason why it has to be except maybe simplicity.