User:Phol ende wodan/Quest level redesign - Revision history

Phol ende wodan: add note regarding current xnethack quest redesign project

2022-04-20T01:01:17Z

add note regarding current xnethack quest redesign project

Phol ende wodan: add new idea for Arc quest story

2020-01-24T14:13:24Z

add new idea for Arc quest story

Phol ende wodan: /* Rogue */ another minor tidbit

2018-11-15T01:28:14Z

‎Rogue: another minor tidbit

Phol ende wodan: /* Wizard */ add old idea of a powerful guarding monster on the locate level

2018-09-10T12:29:47Z

‎Wizard: add old idea of a powerful guarding monster on the locate level

Phol ende wodan: /* Priest */ random thought, a peaceful beehive could work on the home level as well

2018-09-10T00:51:25Z

‎Priest: random thought, a peaceful beehive could work on the home level as well

Phol ende wodan: /* Rogue */ incorporate bouquet's feedback and clarify teleportation in the goal level

2018-07-29T13:46:10Z

‎Rogue: incorporate bouquet's feedback and clarify teleportation in the goal level

Phol ende wodan: /* Knight */ more thoughts on where the quest could go

2018-02-23T23:53:01Z

‎Knight: more thoughts on where the quest could go

Phol ende wodan: Add some small suggestions

2017-12-20T03:08:39Z

Add some small suggestions

Phol ende wodan: /* Tourist */ pickpockets

2017-11-16T23:53:15Z

‎Tourist: pickpockets

Phol ende wodan: /* Rogue */ FIQ suggestion

2017-10-26T20:35:18Z

‎Rogue: FIQ suggestion

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:01, 20 April 2022
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	The goal here is not a full Quest overhaul, so things like leaders, nemeses, and artifacts will not really be covered. This assumes that none of those will be changing; perhaps the quests could become even more unique and varied if I used the freedom to change any of this, but the scope of this proposal is large enough as it is.		The goal here is not a full Quest overhaul, so things like leaders, nemeses, and artifacts will not really be covered. This assumes that none of those will be changing; perhaps the quests could become even more unique and varied if I used the freedom to change any of this, but the scope of this proposal is large enough as it is.
		+
		+	'''2022 note:''' I'm currently redesigning one role's Quest in every xNetHack version, with the goal of eventually completing all of them. In general, I'm going beyond what's in this proposal and taking the approach of trying to tell a unique story with each Quest. Leaders, nemeses, artifacts, and even the win conditions and other mechanics of the quest are all on the table in order to avoid different roles' quests feeling the same. Much of it is guided by this document, though; the rest of this page is left as is in the original proposal.

	== Archeologist ==		== Archeologist ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:13, 24 January 2020
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	The Crypt is fine as levels go, but lacks something in that large portions of it aren't really necessary and it only takes about 20 steps to reach the Minion of Huhetotl. It could be enlarged and reshaped to be less radial (though a sunlike shape of the starting room would be cool). The easiest solution would probably be to randomize the location of him and the altar, but adding in more interesting traps, treasure (because how can an archeological expedition not have lots of gold, gems, and ancient artefacts to loot?) and mummies is also something that could work.		The Crypt is fine as levels go, but lacks something in that large portions of it aren't really necessary and it only takes about 20 steps to reach the Minion of Huhetotl. It could be enlarged and reshaped to be less radial (though a sunlike shape of the starting room would be cool). The easiest solution would probably be to randomize the location of him and the altar, but adding in more interesting traps, treasure (because how can an archeological expedition not have lots of gold, gems, and ancient artefacts to loot?) and mummies is also something that could work.
		+
		+	Later on I had another idea for a better direction to take the quest storyline in (while the above is an improvement, it still follows the same bland quest pattern as all the others). Instead, pattern the story after Raiders of the Lost Ark: the College of Archeology is not in any danger and does not contain any enemies (perhaps not even any hostile spawns); Lord Carnarvon's quest hook is that they've discovered that a rival team of ruthless archeologists has located the quest artifact (probably no longer the Orb of Detection) and is after it. The rival team is better-funded, more numerous, and won't hesitate to kill you (though their leader, the new quest nemesis, might have some lines offering for you to join them instead). You must retrieve the artifact before they can get away with it.

	== Barbarian ==		== Barbarian ==

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 This does not mean its levels are great, though. It uses a fairly bland locate level and a confusingly complex home level, and boring room-and-corridor filler. (The goal level is good, but has some problems too.)
-First, the Thieves' Guild Hall (which the game should call Ransmannsby since the whole level is not the guild hall). As with the other special levels in this quest, the main danger is a chameleon transforming into an out-of-difficulty monster like an arch-lich and destroying the player, so their placement here is not great; the three special levels could stand to do with fewer of them, or none. The overall problem with the level design is that it is almost all alleys (hard to move and maneuver in, which seems odd for a Rogue not to be able to do) and there is a lot of dead space; most houses are not worth exploring unless you are trying to find all the items. Widening at least some of the paths to 2 spaces is a good start. Then, there is a clear attempt to design the level with lots of secret doors and clever passages; random generation could make exploring and finding the secret doors a key component of uncovering the level. Specifically, things like randomly blocking a street with walls but opening up a pathway that goes through a back door in a secret closet in the back room of a nearby house. Additionally, there should be at least one small shop here, such as a 2x2 general store. (I don't think it's possible to create a store with a shopkeeper but no goods, but if it were, that would be ideal - the thieves have already stolen everything from him!) If importing monsters from other games is allowed, the SLASH'EM and UnNetHack mugger (from a competing thieves' guild), perhaps buffed up a bit to Quest difficulty, would seem at home here.
+First, the Thieves' Guild Hall (which the game should call Ransmannsby since the whole level is not the guild hall). As with the other special levels in this quest, the main danger is a chameleon transforming into an out-of-difficulty monster like an arch-lich and destroying the player, so their placement here is not great; the three special levels could stand to do with fewer of them, or none. The overall problem with the level design is that it is almost all alleys (hard to move and maneuver in, which seems odd for a Rogue not to be able to do) and there is a lot of dead space; most houses are not worth exploring unless you are trying to find all the items. Widening at least some of the paths to 2 spaces is a good start. Then, there is a clear attempt to design the level with lots of secret doors and clever passages; random generation could make exploring and finding the secret doors a key component of uncovering the level. Specifically, things like randomly blocking a street with walls but opening up a pathway that goes through a back door in a secret closet in the back room of a nearby house, and fake secret doors that look like they lead somewhere but actually just lead into a dead end wall (except occasionally they do, and the dead end wall is actually another secret door that leads in). Additionally, there should be at least one small shop here, such as a 2x2 general store. (I don't think it's possible to create a store with a shopkeeper but no goods, but if it were, that would be ideal - the thieves have already stolen everything from him!) If importing monsters from other games is allowed, the SLASH'EM and UnNetHack mugger (from a competing thieves' guild), perhaps buffed up a bit to Quest difficulty, would seem at home here.
 It's not defined whether the Thieves' Guild and the Assassins' Guild are in separate towns, but assuming that they are means that the filler levels need not be town filler, which would interfere with the planned Tourist fill. In this case, upper filler levels can be a simple inter-town roadway. Stairs are at opposite ends of the level, as usual, and the game generates a somewhat winding path from one to the other, ensures no obstacles are placed within one or two squares' radius of this path, and the rest of the level on the parts not near the roadway, could be forest, water, walled rock, open space, whatever. (Grass and hedge terrain would be very nice fillers here as well.) Strategically, a level like this will probably be more difficult to play because it will be easier to get mobbed by the level's nymphs. If game mechanics made this possible, there could be a chance of generating a stopped coach or horseman (with peaceful horse) or something on or near the road, in case anyone wants to play highwayman.

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 Upper filler levels proceed left to right through a dark valley, with a narrow 1-wide stream of water running across from left to right without much meandering. The entire map is dark and uses a simple fill algorithm that makes the top and bottom edges rough solid rock. Perhaps there should be some ruined houses here, small rectangular or round structures with their walls randomly replaced with normal ground, and a few scattered trees near the rock walls. There are more wisps of cloud here and maybe some larger contiguous areas. (Maybe add some fog cloud monsters too, why not?)
-The existing Tower of Darkness is fairly boring; the greatest danger here is falling in the moat by accident. To fix it, it should first be made less square; a sorcerer's tower seems like it should be round (as the Lonely Tower is, come to think of it). Then, the stream and valley the player has been following should taper out here; the tower is nestled in the upper reaches of the valley, and the rock sides close in on it but then open up into a circular area in which the tower is built. (Slightly inspired by the geography of Isengard.) There is no moat anymore, since the tower is at the top of a valley. Clouds and darkness persist here. There is one secret door randomized around certain points on the perimeter of the tower (you will have to use secret door detection or else search a lot to find it; unlike the Lonely Tower, you have never been here before). The interior of the tower is redesigned to be an actual functional building; nobody builds their house in a series of narrow concentric rings. Have some rooms with a sink, and the staircase in a reasonable place. The dungeon prisoners are moved here so that if the tower ''can'' somehow be made to go upwards instead of down, they won't inexplicably be on the top level.
+The existing Tower of Darkness is fairly boring; the greatest danger here is falling in the moat by accident. To fix it, it should first be made less square; a sorcerer's tower seems like it should be round (as the Lonely Tower is, come to think of it). Then, the stream and valley the player has been following should taper out here; the tower is nestled in the upper reaches of the valley, and the rock sides close in on it but then open up into a circular area in which the tower is built. (Slightly inspired by the geography of Isengard.) There is no moat anymore, since the tower is at the top of a valley. Clouds and darkness persist here. There is one secret door randomized around certain points on the perimeter of the tower (you will have to use secret door detection or else search a lot to find it; unlike the Lonely Tower, you have never been here before). The interior of the tower is redesigned to be an actual functional building; nobody builds their house in a series of narrow concentric rings. Have some rooms with a sink, and the staircase in a reasonable place. The dungeon prisoners are moved here so that if the tower ''can'' somehow be made to go upwards instead of down, they won't inexplicably be on the top level. Possibly, there should be a powerful minion of the Dark One situated here preventing further approach.
 Like the Samurai quest, this quest really ought to turn upwards here and ascend the tower to have an epic duel with the Dark One at the top, but unfortunately that is not possible with the way the dungeon currently works. In any case, lower filler levels are intermediate floors of the Tower of Darkness, so they maintain the same footprint as the tower base in the locate level, and have a series of directly connected rooms (making a filler algorithm for this would be nice), populated with the usual items and monsters.

@@ Line 90: / Line 90: @@
 == Priest ==
-The Great Temple suffers the same problems as the Monastery, since they are the same level, namely: it's a big rectangular box in a big field with a few scattered trees, and a lot of the space inside the box is useless. The first thing to do is open it up more, to two or even four directions (like the Temple of Nalzok, actually). The altar should be at the center, with side rooms minimized. Either the interior or exterior wall should be crenellated like Vlad's Tower is, except with niches 1 space deep instead of 2, with statues in these niches. If inside, the statues should be of priests, acolytes, and minion-type monsters; if outside, they should be random monsters or gargoyles. The surrounding terrain should be upgraded from its vaguely forest aesthetic to what a thriving Great Temple would normally look like - some outbuildings, well-ordered trees (maybe even fenced-in orchards), a fountain or three, and perhaps a small graveyard (not filled with undead, just six or so neatly arranged headstones in a partitioned-off area). The downstairs are on the far right of the level, opposite the entry portal.
+The Great Temple suffers the same problems as the Monastery, since they are the same level, namely: it's a big rectangular box in a big field with a few scattered trees, and a lot of the space inside the box is useless. The first thing to do is open it up more, to two or even four directions (like the Temple of Nalzok, actually). The altar should be at the center, with side rooms minimized. Either the interior or exterior wall should be crenellated like Vlad's Tower is, except with niches 1 space deep instead of 2, with statues in these niches. If inside, the statues should be of priests, acolytes, and minion-type monsters; if outside, they should be random monsters or gargoyles. The surrounding terrain should be upgraded from its vaguely forest aesthetic to what a thriving Great Temple would normally look like - some outbuildings, well-ordered trees (maybe even fenced-in orchards, maybe even a small beehive with a few peaceful bees), a fountain or three, and perhaps a small graveyard (not filled with undead, just six or so neatly arranged headstones in a partitioned-off area). The downstairs are on the far right of the level, opposite the entry portal.
 Upper filler levels are an overworld journey across unspecified land to the Temple of Nalzok, thus the room-and-corridor fill should be replaced. For this fill, a forlorn aesthetic would work well, making for a trek through dark and foggy open lands with scattered graveyards (the real kind populated with undead), some of which must be crossed in order to walk across the level. The upstairs will be placed along the left edge of the level, and the downstairs within a graveyard hugging the right edge. These graveyards should be around the same total size as the three graveyard rooms that exist in the current filler levels, and should be mostly fenced in. Happily, NetHack does have suitable terrain for doing this - iron bars, which are appropriate for graveyards. The whole level should be dark and have random scattered clouds and lines of petrified trees (adding a hedge terrain would be nice here too); this adds to the flavor of the quest. The dungeon apparently specifies that there should be only one upper filler level, but it does not have to stay that way.

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 Lower filler levels are floors and subfloors of the guild hall itself, so while ordinary room-and-corridor fill could work, it does not feel quite right. For this purpose, I propose a different room-and-corridor generation algorithm: rooms that are either adjacent, or connected by a straight hallway (which is like a 1xn room lined with walls, using normal floor, and with doors on either end). The hostiles here should also be primarily "assassin" monsters; nymphs and leprechauns will probably still have to make an appearance but should be cut back from what they are now.
-The goal level is mostly the same as the current goal level, with some tweaks. First, the no-teleport restriction is lifted, but the Master Assassin's entire area is now a teleport region, so you cannot fall into it or teleport in or out of it. (Would be nice if you could specify teleport regions and no-fall regions separately so you could still fall into this area, but alas.) This removes one possible strategy for the level (repeatedly falling through the ceiling and hoping to end up near the Master Assassin), but the benefit of doing this is that now the two regions that used to be completely inaccessible by normal means have teleport traps in them, which can be used to eventually return to the region containing the upstairs, removing a massive source of frustration for players who fall to one of the inaccessible areas and lack the means to escape. Changes to the regions are as follows:
+The goal level is mostly the same as the current goal level, with some tweaks. First, the level is made teleportable (it isn't currently), but the Master Assassin's entire area is now a unteleportable region similar to the Wizard's Tower: you cannot teleport into or out of it, though unlike the Wizard's Tower you may still fall into it from above. The benefit of doing this is that now the two regions that used to be completely inaccessible by normal means have teleport traps in them, which the player can use to eventually return to the region containing the upstairs, removing a massive source of frustration for players who fall to one of the inaccessible areas and lack the means to escape. Changes to the regions are as follows:
 * Region 1, the leftmost containing the stairs, is fairly unchanged, and is mostly bereft of objects. It no longer extends as close to the Master Assassin as it does now, so using noise to wake him up will require a higher experience level.
 * Region 2, the Master Assassin's area, is also fairly unchanged, down to the chameleon tin in a secret room. If we ''do'' change things to make it possible to fall into this region, perhaps there should be a cursed scroll of teleport here instead, and we can move the chameleon tin to Region 4 or something.

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 The Isle of Glass is fine, but it goes overboard with the number of magic traps. If the goal here is to block all land-based access to the island with magic traps, more water should be added instead. Of course, the downstair should not be smack in the center of the island since the quest does not go beneath the island, though it would be nice if you were still forced to cross through the temple on your way. Possibly, since the isle is a steep rocky summit, it could be a rough oblong shape with walls around the base and containing the temple inside, though this would probably make it feel like a cave. Since you are supposed to "locate" the downstairs when you climb the Isle, maybe the downstairs could be generated/revealed only when you reach the shrine area. As a very unnecessary pun, perhaps some pieces of glass could be scattered around the level or the island.
 Lower filler levels similarly need something to distinguish them from other water-cavern fill levels, but NetHack probably does not have the terrain or objects for this. This part of the Quest is flavored as crossing a body of water or swampland to reach the Dragon's Lair; a pure water level with few scattered islands might actually be better here, requiring levitation or flight in order to reach the goal level. If new terrain types could be added, importing UnNetHack's muddy swamp terrain or some other sort of less-than-solid ground terrain could be added.
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 The Dragon's Lair has the feel of a rough-hewn cavern occupied by a dragon and his hoard, and works very well, especially since Ixoth does not automatically sense you and run towards the cavern entrance. Similarly to the Chromatic Dragon, the cave should have claw and burn marks and carrion (maybe knight player monster corpses?) scattered around. Ixoth could potentially be placed a little farther back into his pocket of the cavern, and the hoard could be given some guaranteed piles of gold (because come on, he's a dragon), but overall this is a good level. Similar to the other non-humanoid nemeses, he should probably not speak, only roar and take angrily-flavored actions. (Though it could be decided that dragons can speak but the common ones prefer not to, or the nemesis dragons are in a class by themselves, or something.)
-I would expect that if any quest generates dragons as a lesser monster, it would be this quest; perhaps one per level.
+I would expect that if any quest generates dragons as a lesser monster, it would be this quest; perhaps one per level. Perhaps only red dragons, and perhaps baby red dragons are the regular quest monster, replacing quasits. Enemy knights could also populate all of the levels except the goal.
 == Monk ==

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 The Caves of the Ancestors have a similar minor problem as other cavern special levels: there is a fair amount of dead space that is not important to traversing the level, unless some desirable item generated there. Other than that, the main logistical problem with the level is that the stairs take you even deeper into the caves, while clearly they are not the same caves as the Dragon's Lair. Shaman Karnov's recounting of the attack and other quest text indicates that the Dragon herself attacked from outside, and then retreated with the Sceptre of Might to her own cave somewhere else. Therefore, part of the right side of the home level should actually be outside the Caves, with the magic portal placed in an antechamber near the entrance, and the stairs should be on the open right edge of the map, meaning you have to go into the Caves to be assigned the quest and come back out again to go to the next level. Parts of the caves may need to be shifted around since the current chambers on the left and bottom will not have any use anymore. And the diagonal choke point should be abolished forever.
-Because you have to move from one cave to the next, the upper filler levels should be mostly open. The type of terrain here could really be anything - trees, water, ice, clouds, rocks - as long as it's sufficiently wilderness.
+Because you have to move from one cave to the next, the upper filler levels should be mostly open. The type of terrain here could really be anything - trees, water, ice, clouds, rocks - as long as it's sufficiently wilderness. A good suggestion by someone was to make these levels heavy snowstorm - moving clouds, ice, little vegetation, low visibility - based on the Cro-Magnon climate.
 Similarly, the Dragon's Lair should be a large cave entrance with an open left side of the level tapering down to it, not a full-level cave system. Its narrow corridors should be widened a bit and the pathway to the downstairs should be fairly straight, because as the quest text states, this is how the gigantic Chromatic Dragon travels to and from her lair. The secret door makes no sense and should be removed. A bugbear corpse or two (carrion) and some semipermanent and burnt engravings of things like "----" and "///" and "\|/" (claw and burn marks) scattered along this route might not be out of place. The dead space in the caverns should, again, be cut back on or given something interesting.
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 * The Master of Thieves is not a magical being and his "earthly body" should not "begin to fade before your eyes". He should just die.
-Giant spiders as the main quest monsters don't make much sense; these should be changed to leprechauns, nymphs, monkeys, and other thieving monsters, or human thieves/muggers - tourists are known for getting pickpocketed.
+Giant spiders as the main quest monsters don't make much sense; these should be changed to leprechauns, nymphs, monkeys, and other thieving monsters, or human thieves/muggers - tourists are known for getting pickpocketed. Leprechauns generated in this quest should carry no gold (though watchmen should).
 The home level should look more like the outskirts of a vast city, not a single largish guarded building across a river. Most of the space on the bottom and the left is pointless, so this area should be shrunk to allow for a more interesting city design. This will include a wall across the upper portion of the level, encompassing the top right corner and maybe the top left and bottom right corners as well. The hero will arrive in the lower left corner, outside a gate guarded by two sessile watchmen (these do not try to bar your entry like in the Rogue quest). Since this is Ankh-Morpork, the river should "flow" through the city and out its walls (muddy swamp or sludge terrain would be even better than water, though, since the river Ankh is definitely mostly not water), with a bridge across it inside the walls. The friendlies and Twoflower should occupy one smallish building near the gates, and the stairs should be somewhere inside the walls along the top right edge, perhaps at the end of the main road. All roads should be more than 1 tile wide because of the fairly high number of peacefuls, and some of them (like the main road inside the gate) should go at an interesting angle instead of having everything be orthogonal. The graveyard outside the city is placed somewhere else outside it, probably still across the river, or else it should be moved into the city. The no-teleport restriction is lifted.
@@ Line 189: / Line 189: @@
 Another possibility for this level is to put the Shrine in a mountain pass (it's already on a hill as per the text), with it in a small clear space in the central part of the map and large protrusions of rock coming out of the top and bottom of the map, with the downstairs somewhere on the right edge. Some monsters will be on the portal side, but more on the stairs side. Maybe you have to pass through the building to cross the level, but maybe not.In either case, the portal should be on the left side of the map and the downstairs on the right.
-Upper filler levels are fine if not rather bland. It'd be cool if it could be a "snowstorm" level, but it would take some pretty large changes to make a realistic snowstorm, and Surtur and his entourage have recently come through here - perhaps their fire powers vaporized any snowstorm taking place. I see no reason for this to be a big open field with *no* obstructions of any sort. Certainly there should still be some scattered lava vents, and maybe a cold unfrozen pond. Maybe also some "islands" of walled rock, so while the level is still an ice field, it is broken up somewhat. There could be a tree here and there, too (though it bearing tropical fruit when kicked is wrong...) Stairs are on opposite edges of the map, as always.
+Upper filler levels are fine if not rather bland. It'd be cool if it could be a "snowstorm" level, but it would take some pretty large changes to make a realistic snowstorm, and Surtur and his entourage have recently come through here - perhaps their fire powers vaporized any snowstorm taking place. I see no reason for this to be a big open field with *no* obstructions of any sort. Certainly there should still be some scattered lava vents, and maybe a cold unfrozen pond. Maybe also some "islands" of walled rock, so while the level is still an ice field, it is broken up somewhat. There could be a tree here and there, too (though it bearing tropical fruit when kicked is wrong...) Stairs are on opposite edges of the map, as always, perhaps with the upstair on the top and the downstair on the bottom, placed pretty far apart horizontally.
 The locate level and the rest of the Quest should be themed as Muspelheim, the Norse world of fire and Surtur's home, instead of the boring "cave of Surtur" (and the finally-assigned-the-quest text should be updated accordingly, maybe noting how you need to journey "far to the south"). The locate level, then, is the gateway to Muspelheim. Assuming the entryway is small, this will probably still have a "cave entrance" feel, in spite of any other details that can be provided. Perhaps it can be a large straight wall, with giants manning the parapets. (Alas, they cannot throw boulders down at you from the parapets, since there is no terrain that allows this.)
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 * For overworld type levels, holes and trap doors should not generate. This can probably be accomplished by making them undiggable-floor, which makes sense.
 * Several of the "when throwing the quest artifact to the quest leader" messages are the same, and probably should be changed up.
 == Nice and necessary changes ==

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 * Region 4, the series of rooms that ultimately goes nowhere and is far away from the Master Assassin, serves as the Assassins' storerooms. The 13 random items that were previously scattered around the level are placed into storerooms here. There is also some sort of gold vault here, or possibly a leprechaun hall, and a newly added teleport trap.
-The Master Assassin has a unique motivation here: he wants to keep the Master of Thieves from getting the Master Key of Thievery at all costs, not for any personal gain, but because the Master of Thieves would use the Key for evil. He does not particularly want to kill you, and is willing to be reasonable with you. Therefore, he is generated peaceful; if you wake him up he will warp to you only once, and will not do it again unless you anger him. If you #chat to him either before or after angering him, he will offer to give you the Bell of Opening if you will go away and let him keep the Key. If you accept he will let you have it, and be pacified (and you can still go back and kill him for the Key later if you want to).
+The Master Assassin has a unique motivation here: he wants to keep the Master of Thieves from getting the Master Key of Thievery at all costs, not for any personal gain, but because the Master of Thieves would use the Key for evil. He does not particularly want to kill you, and is willing to be reasonable with you. Therefore, he is generated peaceful; if you wake him up he will warp to you only once, and will not do it again unless you anger him. If you #chat to him either before or after angering him, he will offer to give you the Bell of Opening if you will go away and let him keep the Key. If you accept he will let you have it, and be pacified (and you can still go back and kill him for the Key later if you want to). Moving next to the Master of Thieves when holding the Bell but not the Key will anger him
 == Samurai ==