User talk:Testbutt/Removables - Revision history

Umbire the Phantom: /* Monsters /

2023-07-10T11:51:28Z

‎Monsters: *

Umbire the Phantom: /* Sam = Kni */ lolsike

2021-03-30T15:57:39Z

‎Sam = Kni: lolsike

Umbire the Phantom: /* Sam = Kni */ new section

2021-03-30T15:52:33Z

‎Sam = Kni: new section

Phol ende wodan: /* Opinions */

2021-03-07T19:07:16Z

‎Opinions

Bluescreenofdeath: /* Opinions */

2021-03-07T18:24:10Z

‎Opinions

Actual-nh: /* Score */ Other suggestions for making it more reasonable/interesting?

2021-03-07T06:16:36Z

‎Score: Other suggestions for making it more reasonable/interesting?

Actual-nh: /* CoMR is not a removable */ Differing probabilities by level (more sensible version)

2021-03-07T06:12:58Z

‎CoMR is not a removable: Differing probabilities by level (more sensible version)

Actual-nh: /* Score */ Wizard beginners

2021-03-07T06:12:08Z

‎Score: Wizard beginners

Umbire the Phantom at 05:59, 7 March 2021

2021-03-07T05:59:43Z

Actual-nh: /* Score */ new section

2021-03-06T17:18:38Z

‎Score: new section

@@ Line 63: / Line 63: @@
 *Possibly jellyfish, piranhas.
-The real issue is that both are among the weaker types of sea monsters: by the time they spawn, they're not usually a threat to you - so ''make'' them a threat. (EvilHack places some in the early Mines, 3.7 plans to give piranhas more speed and a second bite attack...)
+:The real issue is that both are among the weaker types of sea monsters: by the time they spawn, they're not usually a threat to you - so ''make'' them a threat. (EvilHack places some in the early Mines, 3.7 plans to give piranhas more speed and a second bite attack...)
 *Sandestins.
-Not seeing a real reason behind this one. Sandestins favor nasties and only appear in Gehennom - they work to keep the player sufficiently challenged and on their toes, imo.
+:Not seeing a real reason behind this one. Sandestins favor nasties and only appear in Gehennom - they work to keep the player sufficiently challenged and on their toes, imo.
 *Wargs
@@ Line 83: / Line 83: @@
 *Steam vortices
-They make as much sense logically as any other vortex, and are basically the opposite number to ice vortexes.
+:They make as much sense logically as any other vortex, and are basically the opposite number to ice vortexes.
 *Titanotheres, baluchitheria.

@@ Line 184: / Line 184: @@
 == Sam = Kni ==
-:Knight starting inventory is focused on the steed, and though they get their own intrinsic speed at XL 7, a hasted horse is generally always faster. Samurai have a bit of food and intrinsic speed from the start, and so aren't reliant on a second monster that can be killed. I feel like that's a significant divergence right there.
+*Knight starting inventory is focused on the steed, and though they get their own intrinsic speed at XL 7, a hasted horse is generally always faster. Samurai have a bit of food and intrinsic speed from the start, and so aren't reliant on a second monster that can be killed. I feel like that's a significant divergence right there.
-:The STR/CON disparity - as pointed out in the [[Knight]] article, they're not guaranteed the high stat in either to the degree a Samurai is (there's a reason Sams are/were popular zen candidates).
+*The STR/CON disparity - as pointed out in the [[Knight]] article, they're not guaranteed the high stat in either to the degree a Samurai is (there's a reason Sams are/were popular zen candidates).
-:Starting ranged options - samurai have yumi and ya, knights have a very heavy lance.
+*Starting ranged options - samurai have yumi and ya, knights have a very heavy lance.
-:Code of conduct - Knight is advised against attacking fleeing/immobilized foes, stealing, and overeating. Samurai, not so much - mostly focused on not attacking those who aren't already attacking you, e.g. digging up the already-dead and attacking peacefuls. Discouraging poisoned weaponry is something they have in common though, lawful gods dislike that regardless.
+*Code of conduct - Knight is advised against attacking fleeing/immobilized foes and overeating. Samurai, not so much - mostly focused on not attacking those who aren't already attacking you, e.g. attacking peacefuls. Discouraging poisoned weaponry is something they have in common though, lawful gods dislike that regardless - same with grave-digging and theft.
-There's a lot more but I'm just offering these as a start. Will admit to being fascinated by the "Gratuitous French" concept for the Knight. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 15:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
+*There's a lot more but I'm just offering these as a start. Will admit to being fascinated by the "Gratuitous French" concept for the Knight. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom|talk]]) 15:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:52, 30 March 2021
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	:: Testbutt, others: How would you say to make score more reasonable/interesting? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)		:: Testbutt, others: How would you say to make score more reasonable/interesting? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Sam = Kni ==
		+
		+	:Knight starting inventory is focused on the steed, and though they get their own intrinsic speed at XL 7, a hasted horse is generally always faster. Samurai have a bit of food and intrinsic speed from the start, and so aren't reliant on a second monster that can be killed. I feel like that's a significant divergence right there.
		+
		+	:The STR/CON disparity - as pointed out in the [[Knight]] article, they're not guaranteed the high stat in either to the degree a Samurai is (there's a reason Sams are/were popular zen candidates).
		+
		+	:Starting ranged options - samurai have yumi and ya, knights have a very heavy lance.
		+
		+	:Code of conduct - Knight is advised against attacking fleeing/immobilized foes, stealing, and overeating. Samurai, not so much - mostly focused on not attacking those who aren't already attacking you, e.g. digging up the already-dead and attacking peacefuls. Discouraging poisoned weaponry is something they have in common though, lawful gods dislike that regardless.
		+
		+	There's a lot more but I'm just offering these as a start. Will admit to being fascinated by the "Gratuitous French" concept for the Knight. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 15:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:07, 7 March 2021
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	:--[[User:Bluescreenofdeath\|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath\|talk]]) 18:24, 7 March 2021 (UTC)		:--[[User:Bluescreenofdeath\|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath\|talk]]) 18:24, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	: This page seemed kind of... destined? to be interpreted as "I think these things serve no value and should be removed from the game", even if that's not the intent. Calling it "Removables", and adding text to the effect of describing how certain specific items would be removed, will do that. It also doesn't help that the criteria for what a "removable" is, are fuzzier than anticipated. On the one hand you have Testbutt with "sufficiently rare random item drops are all removable", on the other you have Amy with "no polearms are removable so long as they all have slightly different damage stats".
		+	: Contributing my share of insufficiently differentiated stuff was fun, but now I'm not sure what the point of the whole thing is. --[[User:Phol ende wodan\|Phol ende wodan]] ([[User talk:Phol ende wodan\|talk]]) 19:07, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

	== Wondering on some ==		== Wondering on some ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 7 March 2021
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	I literally included other options and reasonings for why at least some of those changes wouldn't have a low impact. My comments (because let's be real, it's me specifically you're referring to in spite of the coyness) aren't about defending features so much as criticizing the thought process behind calling them "low-impact" - and I made suggestions to the end of distinguishing the listed features and actually echoed similar sentiments to you in quite a few instances, so to be labeled "reactionary" seems especially dismissive. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 05:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)		I literally included other options and reasonings for why at least some of those changes wouldn't have a low impact. My comments (because let's be real, it's me specifically you're referring to in spite of the coyness) aren't about defending features so much as criticizing the thought process behind calling them "low-impact" - and I made suggestions to the end of distinguishing the listed features and actually echoed similar sentiments to you in quite a few instances, so to be labeled "reactionary" seems especially dismissive. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 05:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:Hi Umbire, let me chime in because I wanted to thank you for making this very good, detailed list. And like you, I don't get why you received such a dismissive reaction; that you didn't even receive the answer here in the talk section but had to find out that the "answer" to your post was sneakily added to the main article particularly baffles me. That's bad manners, in my eyes, talking about someone like that when one could be talking to them instead. Anyway, while I agree with most of the points of your list, I want to give an overview of the few where my opinion differs; everything I list here is just my personal opinion of course:
		+
		+	:*Jellyfish and piranhas already serve a purpose, as they're kind of the "cannon fodder" of the semicolon class; who says every single member of a monster species has to pose a dire threat to the player? We already have giant and especially electric eels, which make players fear the ; glyph, so I'd say there's nothing wrong with also having a few less dangerous semicolons.
		+
		+	:*Lemures are about the same: a low-threat (or potentially even zero-threat?) monster by the time it appears, to make the game a bit less stressful. Maybe they're a bit too similar to manes, but IMHO they don't need to be buffed to the point where the player has to be super careful around them.
		+
		+	:*By all means, the polearms should remain because they provide variety :) Of course care should be taken that no two types of polearm are exactly identical, but otherwise they're fine.
		+
		+	:*Price identification is IMHO a terrible idea to begin with and should just be removed completely (one of the few cases where I advocate a removal), because it's not only super tedious to have to price-ID stuff in every single game, but not doing it also makes the game significantly harder in an annoying way. I'd rather just have price ID be gone and instead provide more alternate methods of identifying items, which may well mean buffing the potency/frequency of identify scrolls, but making use-testing less punishing could also be a way. Anything where the best strategy isn't "drop item, note down price, #name item with said price, pick it back up, take a look at the spoiler page to figure out what it could be, rinse and repeat for the other 25 unidentified items you've accumulated" would be fine ;)
		+
		+	:--[[User:Bluescreenofdeath\|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath\|talk]]) 18:24, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

	== Wondering on some ==		== Wondering on some ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:16, 7 March 2021
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	: BTW, I am guessing that wizards are different for the beginner cutoff as a joke on "wizard mode"? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)		: BTW, I am guessing that wizards are different for the beginner cutoff as a joke on "wizard mode"? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:: Testbutt, others: How would you say to make score more reasonable/interesting? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 153: / Line 153: @@
 : i don't think you read that entirely [[User:Testbutt|Testbutt]] ([[User talk:Testbutt|talk]]) 22:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 ::FWIW I found a randomly generated cloak of magic resistance on the floor once and certainly wouldn't want that random chance to be gone. What the game needs is more variety, not less; vanilla already gets dull and repetitive quickly enough and if we now start removing stuff... yawn! (just my opinion of course) --[[User:Bluescreenofdeath|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath|talk]]) 08:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
-::: Having item probabilities differing more by level (say, by level difficulty - or even just randomly divide up the items among groups of 2-4 levels, actually) might help. -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 17:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
+::: Having item probabilities differing more by level (say, by level difficulty) might help. -[[User:Actual-nh|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh|talk]]) 17:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 == Score ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:12, 7 March 2021
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	* [[Beginner]] status - should that be removed?		* [[Beginner]] status - should that be removed?
	-[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 17:18, 6 March 2021 (UTC)		-[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 17:18, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	: BTW, I am guessing that wizards are different for the beginner cutoff as a joke on "wizard mode"? -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 06:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:59, 7 March 2021
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	Anyway, take this as you will. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 03:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)		Anyway, take this as you will. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 03:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	:"This page seems to have put a few people up in arms. Note that I didn't say these features should be removed, only that they could be removed - and due to the low impact, few would notice the absence. Other options include: making it more reasonable (score), interesting (monster variants), or useful (tin openers). But getting defensive about game features, getting reactionary? Well that hardly helps anyone."
		+
		+	I literally included other options and reasonings for why at least some of those changes wouldn't have a low impact. My comments (because let's be real, it's me specifically you're referring to in spite of the coyness) aren't about defending features so much as criticizing the thought process behind calling them "low-impact" - and I made suggestions to the end of distinguishing the listed features and actually echoed similar sentiments to you in quite a few instances, so to be labeled "reactionary" seems especially dismissive. --[[User:Umbire the Phantom\|Umbire the Phantom]] ([[User talk:Umbire the Phantom\|talk]]) 05:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

	== Wondering on some ==		== Wondering on some ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:18, 6 March 2021
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	::FWIW I found a randomly generated cloak of magic resistance on the floor once and certainly wouldn't want that random chance to be gone. What the game needs is more variety, not less; vanilla already gets dull and repetitive quickly enough and if we now start removing stuff... yawn! (just my opinion of course) --[[User:Bluescreenofdeath\|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath\|talk]]) 08:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)		::FWIW I found a randomly generated cloak of magic resistance on the floor once and certainly wouldn't want that random chance to be gone. What the game needs is more variety, not less; vanilla already gets dull and repetitive quickly enough and if we now start removing stuff... yawn! (just my opinion of course) --[[User:Bluescreenofdeath\|Bluescreenofdeath]] ([[User talk:Bluescreenofdeath\|talk]]) 08:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
	::: Having item probabilities differing more by level (say, by level difficulty - or even just randomly divide up the items among groups of 2-4 levels, actually) might help. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 17:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)		::: Having item probabilities differing more by level (say, by level difficulty - or even just randomly divide up the items among groups of 2-4 levels, actually) might help. -[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 17:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Score ==
		+
		+	Regarding [[score]] (including making it more interesting):
		+	* It would make it more useful for [https://github.com/facebookresearch/nle AI research] - and potentially more of interest in general - if some of the things currently added in only at game ending were available earlier, when possible (as some variety of "predicted score if ascended" in addition to "score so far", ideally). To prevent this from being an easy means of price identification without a shop, I'd only count identified items as having value.
		+	* Score relative to turns (or realtime) could be an interesting goal. A plot of 3.6.# ascended scores vs turns/realtime could be useful to derive a baseline function.
		+	* [[Beginner]] status - should that be removed?
		+	-[[User:Actual-nh\|Actual-nh]] ([[User talk:Actual-nh\|talk]]) 17:18, 6 March 2021 (UTC)