Talk:Alignment

Shoplifting penalties

This page says that lawful and neutral characters need to avoid shoplifting. I see two problems with this statement. Firstly, I don't think the term "shoplifting" is defined anywhere on this wiki, and clearing out a shop with the aid of a pet carries no penalty for anyone. Secondly, AFAIR the penalty for direct theft (the kind that gets the Kops after you) is 1 point of alignment if you are lawful, and I do not believe that neutrals are penalised at all. Ekaterin 09:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I changed it a little bit to make it a little clearer, and also corrected the neutral thing. --MadDawg2552 01:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I might have confused murder and stealing from shops when editing this alignment page. Various sources agree with Ekaterin that neutrals have no penalty for direct theft. Apparently neutrals have some penalty for murder. Thanks for any corrections, Kernigh 05:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Origins of Law-Chaos alignment

The article states that the Law-Chaos alignment axis probably comes from D&D. While this is likely true, I think it may be useful to point out that D&D got the inspiration for this system from the stories of Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock (from whom we also got Stormbringer, for example). Wikipedia has a discussion here.

Unicorns

I'm not a fan of the claim that "White unicorns are slightly more common than other colors, to compensate for the fact that they don't appear in Gehennom" is be an advantage to lawful types. I don't know about you, but when I was a lawful character and encountered a white unicorn, I groaned because it meant I couldn't kill it without suffering some consequences. I wanted hostile unicorns so I could kill them and get the extremely valuable horn. Lord Seth 07:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"Compensate for" isn't "make up for:" it may or may not be a good thing, just a compensation. But I agree that killing the first unicorn you see is a priority so I get a pet to do it. I'm pretty sure that even large dogs and cats are capable of taking down a unicorn if you're fast enough to stay within 2 spaces and coerce the pet to get close (a leash is great). DemonDoll 13:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That's also how I do it, but more because at that stage of the game, I'm not strong/fast enough myself. If you kill it yourself and you're not a pacifist, the alignment penalty is a joke, and the bad luck goes away fast enough, especially if you're just pushing Sokoban boulders around. -Tjr 16:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Well to be fair it does depend on your role. Fighting classes like Barbarians, Valkyries, and Knights can take them on directly at about the time you start seeing them. The reason I brought this up was because I've been often frustrated by encountering white Unicorns when I'm a Knight or Valkyrie, as I have the power to go in and kill them myself, but I don't want the luck penalty. In any case, I certainly don't think an increased chance of white unicorns early on would be an ADVANTAGE to being Lawful. Lord Seth 07:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I was thinking wizard-centric. If you are a good fighter and an impatient person, you could whack it just as much not to kill it and then let a pet or a trap take it out. If you do not have a stethoscope, you can test in wizard mode how often that is. To be fair, I haven't done that myself with unicorns, but as a pacifist, I take care of the Sokoban giant mimics in a similar fashion. -Tjr 10:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I readded the advantage about white unis, and added a disadvantage to cover LordSeth's point. I still think being Lawful is an advantage uni-wise, because:

• You can throw it gems to compensate for the luck hit from killing it.
• You can just have your pet kill it. --Darth l33t 03:10, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Coaligned neutral peaceful probability

The article states

Due to the nature of the formula used, neutral monsters which can randomly be generated peaceful have at most a ²⁄₃ chance of being so.

The ²⁄₃ is not supported by the formula given on peaceful or by the source , which implies a peaceful probability of $(1-\frac{1}{16+\text{your alignment record}})(1-\frac{1}{2+|\text{monster alignment}|})$ if I am reading it correctly. When monster alignment is 0, this approaches a limit of ¹⁄₂ when your alignment record is large. Cathartes (talk) 04:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Junethack ascensions, artifact wishes, and alignment - somewhat unexpected results

I have done some analysis on 3.6+ Junethack ascensions with dumplogs available (3.6.6, 3.7.0, xNetHack, SpliceHack, EvilHack), and found some... interesting results. Being of lawful starting alignment was heavily correlated with no artifact wishes (P-value of .003894). Even if one leaves out Valkyries, who were almost all lawful and whose quest artifact (Orb of Fate) appears to be one of the ones other roles most commonly wished for (subjective impression only!), it's still significant - P-value of .032282. Any thoughts? -Actual-nh (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Lawful characters have no good artifact wishes, since any source of carried MR can be stolen, making it worse than GDSM or a cloak of magic resistance. The Sceptre of Might, which used to be a strong lawful wish, goes unused now for this reason and because it must be wielded for MR. --Luxidream (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Are worn quest artifacts stealable (by the Wizard)? -Actual-nh (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

...so basically the Mitre of Holiness? I'd think so, yeah, but the Mitre isn't much to write home about among QAs, so I've personally not heard much mention of it. --Umbire the Phantom (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The Mitre of Holiness appears mainly notable for an invocation energy boost. (Priests get half physical damage from undead and demons; N/A for those wishing for it.) This is assuming that worn quest artifacts aren't stealable; I don't know whether they are or not. -Actual-nh (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Worn and wielded quest artifacts can still be stolen. --Luxidream (talk) 22:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you (I'd call that a bug, actually, particularly for the "worn" part!); I'm considering changing the Lawful disadvantages, but am not sure how to word it. -Actual-nh (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If nymphs and monkeys can steal worn items, covetous monsters should be able to as well. With regards to lawful artifacts granting magic resistance, I don't think it's an advantage (because it's not theft-proof) or a disadvantage (you can bag the artifact to prevent the Wizard from stealing it and getting resistance). So I'd say don't mention it at all. --Darth l33t (talk) 02:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Nymphs being able to steal worn items makes sense, given a seduction-related attack; not so sure about monkeys, although admittedly the Mitre is a hat. That the Sceptre of Might has to be wielded for MR is also a problem if someone would otherwise be using Excalibur. It's possible this shouldn't be noted under Alignment but under the Wish strategy section. -Actual-nh (talk) 03:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

src/makemon.c in NetHack 3.6.6, line 2039