Talk:Orcus/Archive 1

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Pinkbeast: I added seven sentences all of which are extremely helpful and relevant. Please do not revert simply because of a vendetta, and please justify your revert.

ADDITIONALLY you can edit the article yourself, keeping the new, helpful information but lowering the number of sentences and number of words, rather than DELETING pertinent information with a revert. That's what a good editor does, by the way.

-magicbymccauley

It's just more of the usual rambling from you, almost all of which (where it's even correct) is equally pertinent to fighting any monster that teleports away to heal, rather than specific to Orcus. The problem with Orcus is not beating him; the problem, and what specific advice on is needed, is getting his wand charges. Pinkbeast (talk) 05:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No, it's not the only problem. The other problem is that there is a long walk backwards where he can summon yeehongu and demogorgon (or yeehongu can summon demogorgon) which can END YOUR GAME. While it is possible with other monsters that teleport away to heal, with orcus it's especially crucial because of the wand of death charges combined with the long walk and the summoning of the most dangerous monsters in the game, not to mention being twin attacked by two (or THREE) greater demons.

Even just the extremely long walk through Orcus town while he attacks you can be a real pain in the ass, unlike other situations (where you can bribe a demon, or use scroll of scare monster on the upstairs in case of a quest nemesis.

Now stop deleting my edit which has important information for players, please.

-magicbymccauley

If you're walking from Orcus's lair (and hence from the downstairs which would give you immediate access to upstairs to fight him on) all the way to the upstairs, the answer is _don't do that_, not to worry about exactly how far it is and what might happen. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

pinkbeast this is what you have in the wiki currently:

"Another option is to go downstairs (perhaps having arranged, eg via level teleportation, to come up the stairs in order to attack him), then stand on the upstairs to fight him; since he will now remain in close contact, you may be able to kill him before he can empty the wand, but this will not instantly kill him or render him unable to act in the way the other methods will."

First of all, let me say, respectfully and in a non-hostile way that this isn't even correct use of the English language.

The comma between "contact" and "you" is improper and the sentence should end there, it's a run on. Technically you could use a semicolon here, but that's not very good writing because you've already used a semicolon in this sentence once already. You need to reformat the sentence into proper syntax.

Secondly I don't understand and I don't think the readers of the wiki understand what you're saying here. You are using "upstairs" and "downstairs" without reference to what level you're speaking about, which creates confusion in the language, similar to how ambiguous pronouns work.

Here is how it should read.

"Another option is to fight Orcus until he teleports away, then go downstairs past the Orcus level, and then arrange by levelport to arrive on a level above the Orcus level. Then proceed downward to Orcus and you will arrive on his level standing on the upstairs to fight him. He will remain in close contact, and you may be able to kill him without him completely emptying the wand. However this will not immediately render him immobile as Potion of Paralysis or Stoning will."

I would then add the following:

"This method of descending, levelporting above Orcus and then descending down again to fight him will also prevent a long walk back and will minimize the chance of him summoning Yeenoghu or Demogorgon, as walking back rather than levelporting is the most common way to summon Demogorgon."

You also in a previous edit, reverted my edit noting the walk back to the upstairs is the most common way to summon Demogorgon. However this IS the most common way to summon Demogorgon as stated in the wiki under Demogorgon, which I DID NOT WRITE.

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Demogorgon >The safest approach to Demogorgon is not to meet him in the first place. As mentioned above, in >vanilla NetHack, Demogorgon will not appear unless summoned, and Orcus, Juiblex and Yeenoghu are the >most likely creatures to do this.

Jubilex engulfs you immediately upon seeing you, (meaning that you will kill him quickly or die) whereas the long walk from the downstairs to the upstairs of Orcus gives ample time for Orcus to summon Demogorgon, or to summon Yeenoghu, who can also summon Demogorgon.

Therefore, factually, the most likely way a player encounters Demogorgon is through Orcus summoning him.

Likewise, while battling Orcus or his harrasment on the way back to the upstair from the downstair shouldn't be a problem for most well equipped adventurers, dealing with both Orcus and Yeenoghu simultaneously is a problem, and likewise dealing with Orcus, Yeenogu, and Demogorgon all at the same time is near impossible. (This has happened to me in two different games on the walk back, once I died, once I survived by splitting each on a separate level, after that I levelported each time).

As well Yeenoghu's confusing attack can prevent Elbereth engraving, another serious problem.

Because of all that, I believe that players should be advised that levelporting above Orcus if they don't have multiple potions of paralysis and ring of free action, or don't have a wish ready for a cockatrice corpse, is the safest way to deal with Orcus.

I won't edit the wiki because I'm banned right now, but it also banned my ability to edit on the discussion page, which I think was unintentional by bcode.

-magicbymccauley

Note this also from the wiki entry on Demogorgon:

"Conversely, if you want to meet Demogorgon, perhaps as the ultimate demonstration of your demon-hunting prowess, then take precautions against Orcus' wand of death and let him spend all the time he wants ineffectively zapping you with it. Demogorgon will be along eventually."

And that's the real problem. Demogorgon will be along eventually if you take too much time with Orcus, which is why the long walk back (and not levelporting) is a bad idea, correct?

-magicbymccauley

I have added information about Demogorgon on this page. If you believe I am in error please cite a source demonstrating so. According to the Demogorgon article Yeehnohgu, Orcus, and Jubilex are the most common ways to summon Demogorgon. Of these three, Orcuws is thus the most common, as Jubilex can be dispatched quickly and Orcus can also summon Yeenoghu. As Demogorgon is one of the most dangerous monsters in the game, (and has killed me once from Orcus summoning him on the long walk back) I would appreciate it if you left this information in the wiki. Players should be warned about this possible summoning and the long walk back. As well, they should be given an alternate strategy to avoid this, as lances for jousting, potions of paralysis, ring of free action, and a cockatrice corpse are all rare items, whereas scrolls of teleport and confusion (via forgotten spell) are common and easy to get.

=magicbymccauley

Pinkbeast, you have reverted my article without citing a source. I believe you may be mistaken about how Orcus and the Orcus level works. If you approach orvus on the orcus level where he appears near the downstairs, and attempt to fight him, he will teleport away to the upstairs. If you go down the downstairs, he will not follow you. You cannot teleport on the Orcus level. Thus you need to fight Orcus, get him to teleport away, go down the downstairs, and then levelport above the level, and then proceed back down.

if you walk backwards through the level to get to the upstairs (remember you can't teleport back to the upstairs, the level is no-teleport) he will harass you the whole way back, which is what we're trying to avoid.

You also reverted the entire article, and did not cite a source for why you have now reverted and deleted my contribution as to why this is the most common way to meet Demogorgon. Why did you do that? What is your source for a more common way to meet Demogorgon. Can you please give me that source before deleting content in the article.

The writing is not "convoluted". The writing is very clear. What is unclear about it?

-magicbymccauley

The first error in what you have written is that a few turns after teleporting away, Orcus will teleport back to you. He doesn't just lurk indefinitely on the upstairs. This is detailed on covetous. Pinkbeast (talk) 06:27, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinkbeast I can't put together what you are saying. I don't understand.

"The first error in what you have written is that a few turns after teleporting away, Orcus will teleport back to you."

This isn't an error? I don't know how many turns it is but yes, after teleporting away to the upstairs, he will teleport back to you and attack you (at some point). Orcus isn't covetous? From the "covetous" wiki entry: "Certain high-level monsters are covetous, in that they desire one of the unique items or the quest artifacts of any role." Orcus isn't coveting any item. He just teleports to the upstairs to heal from your attacks? So....IDK I guess you can say his teleport away behavior is similar to covetous, but he's not coveting anything.

"He doesn't just lurk indefinitely on the upstairs." I don't believe I ever said this? Orcus will be NEXT to the upstairs when you proceed back down after levelporting. I feel like you're kind of not understanding what I'm saying. Would you like me to send you a video or a ttyrec of this?

I don't understand what's going on here. Something I'm communicating is not getting through.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pinkbeast, can you please pugt back the data that Orcus, and specifically the walk back from downstairs to upstairs is the most common way to meet the most dangerous monster in the game? This is vitally important and people don't know this. You haven't cited a source contradicting this, and it's stated in the demogorgon wiki. It needs to be stated here so that people are alerted that the long walk back can kill them.

-magicbymccauley

Your writing isn't very clear, as ever; but in view of that I think the error is "If you go down the downstairs, he will not follow you". He will.
You have no idea if it's the "most common way" to meet Demogorgon; that is pure guesswork. I doubt that walk is, because there is absolutely no reason to make that walk to begin with and so competent players don't do it, and of course it is not stated anywhere in Demogorgon that pointless treks across Orcus's level are the most common way to meet Demogorgon. I don't need to cite a source to remove guesswork based on something another page doesn't actually say. Pinkbeast (talk) 06:55, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Orcus will not follow you down the downstairs. I've never gotten him to do that.

If there's a way to do that, you might want to say that in the wiki. Have you tested this? How do you get Orcus to do that?

In addition, even if that were to happen, he teleports away very quickly.

The orcus-town entry states that Orcus is ON the downstairs. So you have to fight him and get him to teleport away.

Are you saying that you go to Orcus, attack him on the downstairs, he teleports away, you stand on the downstairs and wait, and then when he comes back, you go down the downstairs and he will follow?

I haven't been able to get him to do that. If you're sure of that, that's a much easier strategy than levelporting on the level below, so that strategy (attack, get him off the downstair, stand and wait on the downstairs, and then when he's next to you go downstairs and he will follow) SHOULD DEFINITELY be included in the wiki. I've never heard of that.

-magicbymccauley

It was already in the page before you started junking it up. Please stop adding this nonsense about trekking across the level. Frankly, I was surprised (and disappointed) you didn't get a permanent ban for sockpuppeting, but cramming this junk in is going to be an excellent way to get yourself another block. Pinkbeast (talk) 07:06, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

It is NOT on the page. Where on the page does it explain the strategy that you attack orcus as he stands on the downstairs, wait for him to teleport away, stand on the upstairs, wait for him to attack again, and then go downstairs an he will follow.

Where does it say that?

I don't see that.

Your claim that I was sockpuppeting is false. Please cite a source for that. Going on as magicbymccauley2, and openly stating that I was just editing a discussion page is not sockpuppeting. #claimdenied.

>:You have no idea if it's the "most common way" to meet Demogorgon; that is pure guesswork.

The wiki itself says that, even if there is no long trek back to the upstairs.

Here is the wiki on demogorgon (which, by the way, I didn't write).

"Demogorgon will not appear unless summoned, and Orcus, Juiblex and Yeenoghu are the most likely creatures to do this."

Of the three Jubilex is out. He's killable by several quick means, and usually goes down in two or three hits with a good weapon. Yeenoghu I've never encountered except by summon (by Orcus). As Orcus can summon Yeenoghu, and Yeenoghu and Orcus can both summon Demogorgon, encountering Orcus (even without the long trek back) is still the most common way to summon Demogorgon.

Please cite a source for a more common way to summon Demogorgon. If you can't then my edit should be restored. The most common way to encounter the most dangerous monster in the game deserves mention in the wiki, don't you think?

>there is absolutely no reason to make that walk to begin with and so competent players don't do it

Your assertion that competent players know that they should attack Orcus, wait for him to teleport away, go stand on the downstairs, wait for him to come back, and then proceed down the downstairs is not just "what competent players do". Your claim, if true, is a vital strategy that should be included on the page. You are making the error of thinking that if you know something, everyone does.

"Another option is to go downstairs (...), then stand on the upstairs to fight him". (Some of the other steps you have made up aren't necessary).
The wiki does not say "The long walk back from the downstairs to the upstairs is the most common way to summon Demogorgon", or anything equivalent to that, anywhere. The material you have quoted above doesn't say it. This is reminiscent of Talk:Artifact weapon, where you were loudly demanding proof of a claim that had never been made.
Your sock account got banned. I'm not sure you should really take that as an endorsement of your actions. Pinkbeast (talk) 07:32, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I have re edited for brevity is this now acceptable?

-magicbymccauley

>>"Another option is to go downstairs (...), then stand on the upstairs to fight him". (Some of the other steps you have made up aren't necessary). >The wiki does not say "The long walk back from the downstairs to the upstairs is the most common way to summon Demogorgon", or anything equivalent to that, anywhere. The material you have quoted above doesn't say it. This is >reminiscent of Talk:Artifact weapon, where you were loudly demanding proof of a claim that had never been made. <Your sock account got banned. I'm not sure you should really take that as an endorsement of your actions.

Agreed. The article does not say anything about a long walk. That's been removed in the current edit. There is no mention about a long walk now. Is the article now acceptable to you?

-magicbymccauley

><Your sock account got banned. I'm not sure you should really take that as an endorsement of your actions.

And that's fine. But sockpuppeting is deceptively using a second account. That's not what I did. I merely made a second account to talk on the discussion page and named it magicbymccauley2 so everyone would know it was me, and I didn't use it to actually edit an article. Let's not exaggerate here.

-magicbymccauley

Pinkbeast, you say "perhaps having arranged, eg via level teleportation, to come up the stairs in order to attack him)," You can't go up or down stairs via levelporting. Levelporting deposits you on a level, it doesn't use the actual stairs. You don't "come up the stairs" via level teleportation.

As such, I and the reader don't know what you mean here.

What you're saying (I believe) is that you can attack orcus, wait for him to teleport off the downstairs, which he starts on, and then stand on the downstairs and wait for him to be adjacent to you, then walk down. If that's so, you need to actually say that, not allude to it. I believe your language is confusing here.

You've also, by reverting, deleted the data that demogorgon is most commonly encountered fighting Orcus.

-magicbymccauley

Couldn't you just _stop_ trashing articles with rambling digressions? Nothing you've written is an improvement. It's overlong and suggests, for no readily apparent reason, a plan involving starting on a perfectly good downstairs that provides a way to fight Orcus on an upstairs, but instead level teleporting back up and coming back down to arrive at... an upstairs to fight Orcus on. As an added bonus, it's an upstairs on a no-teleport level thus limiting your options if Orcus _does_ summon Demogorgon, and it's a plan you only came up with because you didn't know demons follow you downstairs. It doesn't need rewritten, it needs shredded.
Your method #1, besides being a hopelessly verbose expression of something that's covered already, is also in error because a lot of the time you don't have to attack Orcus to get him off the downstairs. He'll come and say hello.
Obviously I know levelporting doesn't use the stairs. The article doesn't say that it does.
It'd be nice also if you could not spend over an hour claiming Demogorgon says something when in fact you just made it up. The claim that Demogorgon is most commonly encountered fighting Orcus is pure guesswork on your part (don't just reiterate all the stuff above; I've read it and it fails to account for multiple important factors). Pinkbeast (talk) 07:49, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Can we not go through this cycle where you junk up the page, it gets reverted, and you come back with a miniscule variation on the same junk? We went through it all at Artifact weapon. It was strongly suggested then that you get the approval of other editors for your changes rather than just leap in. Nothing has changed since then. Pinkbeast (talk) 07:57, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinkbeast: Wielding a potion of paralysis wasn't included in the article. I put that in. That is important information. Throwing a potion of paralysis or wielding one doesn't automatically paralyze Orcus, and you may need multiple potions. I put that in. That is important information. Using a ring of free action (so that you can wield the potion of paralysis and not get paralyzed yourself) was not in the wiki. I put that in. That is important information.

Levelporting on the level below, so that you can proceed back down and catch Demogorgon on an upstairs is important information. I put that in.


The information that you can attack Orcus, get him to telport away, stand on the downstairs, wait for him to come back, proceed downward to fight him on an upstairs is important information. People need to know that. Your asserttion that every decent player knows that (because you know it) isn't accurate. Not everyone is pinkbeast.

^These are significant contributions to the wiki. I'm trying to make contributions to the wiki.

The fact that Demogorgon is most likely summoned by Orcus, Yeenohgu, and Jubilex is important information and needs to be on the Orcus page, because it's the most dangerous monster in the game. You haven't mustered a counterargument for what these "other factors" are that make encountering Demogorgon more likely in other situations.

>a lot of the time you don't have to attack Orcus to get him off the downstairs. He'll come and say hello.

I have never, not in all my games ever encountered Orcus leaving the downstairs and attacking me. "a lot of the time?" I don't believe it happens "a lot of the time" or even a majority of the time.

>Nothing you've written is an improvement.

You claim that nothing I've written is an improvement, yet you kept in my statement about wielding a potion, and my statement about ring of free action. I feel that I am positively contributing to the wiki.

>The claim that Demogorgon is most commonly encountered fighting Orcus is pure guesswork on your part (don't just reiterate all the stuff above; I've read it and it fails to account for multiple important factors).

Let's hear it. When is the more common situation fighting Demogorgon other than fighting Orcus? What are these other multiple important factors? If I'm wrong show me a source or give me some reasoning. The wiki itself says the most common encounters are from Yeenhogu, Jubilex or Orcus. Unless you're contradicting what the wiki already says, please make your argument for Jubilex (killed in three hits) or Yeenhogu (who is not even guaranteed to appear, like Orcus is.

>it's a plan you only came up with because you didn't know demons follow you downstairs. It doesn't need rewritten, it needs shredded.

That's not true. Levelporting back above Orcus Town might be more desirable than having him follow you down to a lower level (for instance if there are several monsters that will also follow you down, making for a harder fight). I agree your strategy might be better and doesn't require levelporting, but scrolls of teleport are some of the most common magic items in the game so it's not a big deal. Levelporting will mean you fight orcus alone, without the aid of the demons in his lair which can follow you down (and which can in turn summon other demons).

You are simply trying to prevent me from editing the wiki at all. I don't know why you're doing that, but whatever the reason, I do have contributions to add, ones you and other editors didn't think of, and ones which you do include in the edit because they are good strategy, as you have admitted.

Where we disagree is on how to express things.

I don't care how things are expressed so long as the contributing data is still there. I think the data is more important than how many words are used. You obviously think the style of the article is more important than the data transmitted. I only care about style when it corrupts the data.

-magicbymccauley

>It was strongly suggested then that you get the approval of other editors for your changes rather than just leap in.

I see. Do you also need to get the approval of other editors for your changes? Is that what this wiki is? That all people must get approval for editing a page? If so, why is that?


>:Can we not go through this cycle where you junk up the page, it gets reverted, and you come back with a miniscule variation on the same junk?>

Can we not go through this cycle where I contribute valuable data to the page, and that, because you don't like my style of writing, you revert the article and delete the pertinent data?

Could you instead keep the data and just rewrite it the way you want?

Why do you want to revert and delete everything I write, even when I contribute real, positive data to the wiki?

-magicbymccauley

Your edit: "Another option is to go downstairs when Orcus is adjacent (perhaps having arranged, eg via level teleportation, to come up the stairs in order to attack him),"

^ The above sentence, which you have included in the wiki doesn't make any sense. I can't even understand, in any way, what you're trying to get at here.

This needs to be rewritten, it is not effective communication. I don't know what data is being communicated, but you cannot "come up the stairs" "via level teleportation". Moreover, if you go downstairs while Orcus is adjacent, I don't know why you would need level teleporation at all or why you would need to "come up the stairs".

Simply because you are an editor doesn't mean that you are preserving data correctly, or conveying things with proper sentence structure. This needs to be changed. I don't care what you write and I'm not going to edit it, but it obviously needs to be changed. Please, Please fix this.

-magicbymccauley

I've tried one last time changing "Orcus is the most common way to encounter Demogorgon" to "Orcus is one of the most common ways to encounter Demogorgon". I've also edited down as much as possible, but kept pertinent information such as the need for multiple potions. Cleaned up the language about the two strategies (luring orcus downstairs or levelporting above him).

-Magicbymccauley

edited down again to keep all data but make the entry even smaller.


Data removed by current edit:

1. That you can wield a potion and smash it on Orcus, rather than throw it. Wielding avoids a thrown miss chance. The reader won't know this from the current edit.

2. That you may need multiple potions, the first one (even if smashed on him) may not work.

3. That the means to avoid paralysis yourself is by wearing a ring of free action.

4. That going downwards and then levelporting above orcus and proceeding back down is a viable strategy, both to get on an upstairs and to avoid other demons in his lair that will follow you down the downstairs. The levelport up method catches Orcus alone.

5. Levelporting BELOW orcus is much more difficult than levelporting above orcus after encountering him. This is because certain levelport options will only teleport you to levels you've already visited. In fact I think you can only levelport to levels you've already visited. see levelport I believe this statement is in error. "You can levelport up out of your current dungeon branch, but not down."

6. Just as an addendum, if your goal is to get Orcus to be adjacent to you on the downstair, and if he will follow you down every time, then you can dig down upon reaching the Orcus level (the level is diggable), and then find the upstairs on the level below, go up the upstairs (Orcus will automatically be adjacent) and then down again luring Orcus below Orcus Town. This will land you on the upstairs of the level below orcus town.

1 2 3 are covered at potion of paralysis, apart from the outright error in point 2.
4 is, as already discussed, a pointless exercise in gratuitously arranging to fight on a no-teleport level. Orcus's lair does not place other demons; he might summon one or two ordinary demons, but since ordinary demons are pretty well chaff, this isn't a serious concern.
5 is just wrong.
6 is already covered in the article, apart from the error. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Having users click potion of paralysis in order to learn that you can smash it on Orcus isn't a good idea. Users will see "use" a potion of paralysis on Orcus and think that they should throw it. 99% won't further click on potion of paralysis to find out that you need to smash it. The smashing strategy is important for Orcus in particular as it is so much better than throwing. It should be on the Orcus page. Likewise with ring of free action.

The steps taken to smash a potion of paralysis on Orcus is pretty much a unique strategy to Orcus. It used to be used on the wizard back in the day, but I can't think of any other situation you'd smash a potion of paralysis other than orcus.

I've smashed a potion of paralysis on Orcus and it didn't work, more than once. Dunno if it's because I failed my hit roll, he resisted, bad luck, I'm not sure, but in any case I've smashed him and it was ineffectual. Thus I think the note about multiples is warranted. Having players rely on the wiki and then be SOL when the potion doesn't work is a bad thing.

>is, as already discussed, a pointless exercise in gratuitously arranging to fight on a no-teleport level. Orcus's lair does not place other demons; he might summon one or two ordinary demons, but since ordinary demons are pretty >well chaff, this isn't a serious concern.

Fighting him on the upstairs of Orcustown (a no teleport level) isn't a big issue. You can simply walk upstairs and you're now on a teleport level. (You can also wand of digging down to escape to a non-teleport level too). Levelporting above orcus is still a good strategy because there are several guaranteed monsters in Orcus' throne room who can follow you downstairs. These monsters also can throw potions of their own, zap wands (such as create monster) or read scrolls (such as create monster.

Levelporting above Orcus and walking back down to Orcustown guarantees you will fight him alone.

>:5 is just wrong.

No, it's true. Levelporting to an upper level is much easier than levelporting to a lower level. For instance, you can branchport with the Eye of Atheiopica. This will take you to any of several branches, all of which are above orcus town. Reading a scroll while confused of any beatitude will levelport you to a random level. This random level will with 99.9999999 certainty be above orcus town (since it will be a random level without teleport contol, there would be, for instance a 1/36 chance that you'll levelport to a level below orcus (if you've only mapped to Orcus and 1 level below orcus). To levelport to a specific level you need teleport control, or the orb of fate. So levelporting downwards is much more difficult than levelporting upwards.

6. (digging) is included as you say, but we might need to make that a bit clearer.

7. You still refuse to state that fighting Orcus is one of the most common ways to encounter Demogorgon. This is important information and should be included.

-magicbymccauley

Let's do the readers the courtesy of assuming they're not complete idiots and know how to click on links, rather than embark on an exercise in copying every wiki article into every other wiki article.
If you check the source you will see that hitting a monster with a potion of paralysis always paralyses it for at least one turn. If you read the article you will see it already mentions potions, plural.
"In fact I think you can only levelport to levels you've already visited" is just wrong. Spare me the series of replies where you deny having said that and then vigorously undertake to prove something else. (And the whole scheme of levelporting is bananas anyway when, as Tone correctly notes, a wand of digging will set things up quite nicely.)
I think the existing material describing quote digging down unquote is, in fact, clear.
I can't _still_ refuse to state that, because the claim that fighting Orcus is "one of the most common ways" to encounter Demogorgon is one that, in typical style, you've only shifted to without, of course, acknowledging your previous guesswork was wrong.
I think Demogorgon is adequately flagged up as a potential threat in the article (again, if we assume the reader is not an idiot, they can be relied upon to realise there is a reason Demogorgon is mentioned so often and click on the link if required) and that in any case there are few ways to encounter Demogorgon (so singling one out as "one of the most common" ways is absurd, like describing someone as one of the three tallest people in a room of four) and they all should be respected.
But most importantly, I think you should wait and see if _any_ other editor thinks this stuff has merit. I'm hardly the only person to say this to you. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinkbeast, this is what is already in the wiki on Demogorgon:

"The safest approach to Demogorgon is not to meet him in the first place. As mentioned above, in vanilla NetHack, Demogorgon will not appear unless summoned, and Orcus, Juiblex and Yeenoghu are the most likely creatures to do this. Therefore, when facing any of these foes, kill them as expeditiously as possible. If you get bogged down fighting lesser threats, you are giving Demogorgon an opportunity to arrive every turn.

Conversely, if you want to meet Demogorgon, perhaps as the ultimate demonstration of your demon-hunting prowess, then take precautions against Orcus' wand of death and let him spend all the time he wants ineffectively zapping you with it. Demogorgon will be along eventually."


The wiki states that "Orcus, Jubilex, and Yeenoghu are the most likely creatures to do this" Therefore Orcus is ONE OF the most likely creatures to do this.

So there's no "guesswork". It's what the wiki on Demogorgon states, and it should be on the Orcus page because the reader needs to be warned that this is one of the most likely ways to summon Demogorgon.

There is a big difference between "he could summon Demogorgon" and "This is one of the most likely ways to summon Demogorgon." The latter is a much more strongly worded warning, and as it is factual, it should be included.

-magicbymccauley

You also reverted the whole edit, and left out the part that Orcus can create a situation where you are fighting three demons simultaneously, one of which has a stunning attack and another of which has a confusion attack. This is a nightmare scenario (can't use elbereth, accidentally step off of upstairs, messes up scroll use, requires constant remedies etc) that I've faced twice (so trust me, it's a nightmare) and players should be warned about this possible scenario. Please delete or edit only the part you disagree with, and don't delete other parts that have relevant data.

-magicbymccauley

Latest pointless addition

"Due to this, a player could be facing all three of these demons at once, two of which have status attacks which require constant remedy: a nightmare scenario."

The reader should, of course, be trusted to be able to review the pages for Yeenoghu and Demogorgon, and to work out from "Orcus can summon Demogorgon and Yeenoghu (who can also summon Demogorgon)" that, er, Orcus might summon Yeenoghu and Demogorgon.

This isn't actually a remotely likely scenario if Orcus is dealt with quickly. There is a .38% chance of Orcus summoning Demogorgon each time he attacks (which is ordinarily less often than every player turn). He has better odds of summoning Yeenoghu (especially if we assume the scenario where Juiblex is dead), but Yeenoghu has only a .15% chance of summoning Demogorgon every time he attacks. It appears likely to Magicbymccauley only because they had been pointlessly trekking across Orcus's level.

It's not clear to me that it merits inclusion at all; it certainly doesn't need crammed into the lead, ahead of the information on how to beat Orcus quickly and minimise (or eliminate) the already low risk. There are many combinations of summons which are bad; obviously we don't propose to document them all on summon nasties.

Threat assessment

hardfought-US has records of 5 nethack-3.6.x games where the player was killed by Demogorgon.

It has 0 games where the player was killed by Orcus. It has 12 games where the player was killed by Yeenoghu, but none of these reached Gehennom. Now, being killed by members of the trifecta isn't the only way it can kill you, but I hope reasonable editors will agree these 5 games hence should capture the majority of the supposed threat.

  • [1] Orcus dead. No sign of Yeenoghu (not killed, not visible at time of death, players appears to annotate levels with major demons). Death occurred two levels above Orcus-town. Not the trifecta.
  • [2] I checked the ttyrec for this one. User appears to have brought Vlad to Orcus-town (and never succeeded in defeating them), then had Yeenoghu summoned. Attempted to fight this lot on the downstairs, first dropping their BoH down the stairs. However, they kill Yeenoghu at T:50955 in the ttyrec, and Demogorgon doesn't even appear until T:51151. There are many ways this player could have improved their strategy, some of which the wiki covers, but one thing that didn't happen is all three named demons at once, in spite of first seeing Orcus on turn 50568 and hence spending circa _400 turns_ trying to deal with the denizens of Orcus-town.
  • [3] Progress here in that they did in fact have all three named demons on-screen at once. On checking ttyrecs again, Orcus did summon the other two. So, vindication? No; Orcus summoned the other two when the player trekked clean across Orcus-town. (They then fought a valiant rearguard action for over 2000 turns...
  • [4] Here the player has saved me some time by dying near the upstairs on Orcus-town; and once again the player has only arranged to have the other two summoned only after a lengthy trek to the upstairs.
  • [5] Yeenoghu not involved; not AFAICT present in the game. (Incidentally, the player's strategy to deal with Orcus was to... levelport one level above Orcus-town and descend. So, that worked well.)

There are 14,828 games in this logfile, excluding games quit or escaped whose maximum level visited is 1 (it would be unfair to include startscummed games, which the vast majority of these are, in an assessment of how common a death is). Of those, in exactly 2 games (0.01%) has the player died to Orcus summoning Yeenoghu and Demogorgon. In both cases, since the summoning occurred after they had trekked across Orcus-town being attacked by Orcus many times, it is overwhelmingly likely they would not have had the problem if they had used the strategies already described on this page.

I know already magicbymccauley will never agree with this, and hope perhaps we can take that as assumed without an interminable reply. I do invite comment from other editors, but in view of the above - and magicby's complete unwillingness to cooperate - I intend to remove the disputed sentence absent any indication that any other editor thinks it merits inclusion.

Let me fend off the response that goes "oh, so you agree with my rambling stuff about not making the trek"; no, we already recommend the most efficient ways to get to an upstairs to fight. Pinkbeast (talk) 04:03, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I would note here also that from experience over a relatively large number of games that it is more likely for Yeenoghu to summon Demogorgon than for Orcus to do so. The reasons for this are that Orcus is a spellcaster and will sometimes opt to cast spells instead of making a melee attack that can gate in demons, and that any reasonable character can smash him in the face and kill him before he uses up the wand of death. This isn’t true of Yeenoghu, who will melee you every round and can paralyze an unprepared player. You can argue that Orcus can summon Yeenoghu, but for the reasons above Orcus is also very unlikely to do this. --Luxidream (talk) 05:45, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
I was a bit confused by that one but have looked into it in more detail. It's not actually the melee attack that gates in demons; it's done by mattacku() but all that is necessary is for the monster to be next to you when mattacku() is called, so Orcus can summon while using his wand. I uncovered this in wizmode testing and it was that which made me suspect demon gating doesn't work quite as it was described there.
As far as I can see the monster's wands and spells make no difference; for a covetous monster that is not endeavouring to hide and heal, wizard.c does
   if (!rn2(!mtmp->mflee ? 5 : 33))
           mnexto(mtmp);
Orcus appears to be waiting to cast spells, but in fact he doesn't choose between melee attacks and spells, he uses both if adjacent. On turns when he appears to be standing still and casting spells, Yeenoghu would just be standing still.
I don't know, obviously, but I suspect Yeenoghu may appear more likely to summon Demogorgon because you make special preparations to thwomp Orcus and get the wand charges, so he has fewer turns of opportunity. (FWIW, while of course I have a considerably smaller corpus of games, every time I've seen Demogorgon, Rodney summoned him...)
Additionally I don't enjoy the familiarity with the NetHack source I used to, so there may be some factor I am overlooking - but I'm quite sure from adding diagnostic output it's just acting next to you that gives a chance to summon. Pinkbeast (talk) 06:51, 22 September 2019 (UTC)


>The reader should, of course, be trusted to be able to review the pages for Yeenoghu and Demogorgon, and to work out from "Orcus can summon Demogorgon and Yeenoghu (who can also summon Demogorgon)" that, er, Orcus might summon >Yeenoghu and Demogorgon. This isn't actually a remotely likely scenario if Orcus is dealt with quickly.

The point isn't, by the way, that the reader doesn't know that there is a possibility of facing all three. The point is that the player can face all three and that Demogorgon (A.) is one of the hardest to kill monsters in the game and B.) that both monsters have stunning attacks.

Mentioning that the encounter with Orcus could result in this triad attack, which has two demons alternately stunning and confusing you is not a "pointless addition". It's a very nasty way to die and end your game, even with a very well prepared character, and it is not a random YASD. It can happen. The stunning and confusion attacks are really bad because they can make you accidentally step off the stairs, make you unable to cast spells, and a host of other calamaties, not to mention facing three of the most powerful monsters in the game simultaneously.

>This isn't actually a remotely likely scenario if Orcus is dealt with quickly.

And that's precisely why it's said, to impress on the player that, while Orcus might not be too dangerous, him summoning these two other demons (and having to fight all three) is.

>Of those, in exactly 2 games (0.01%) has the player died to Orcus summoning Yeenoghu and Demogorgon. In both cases, since the summoning occurred after they had trekked across Orcus-town being attacked by Orcus many times, it is >overwhelmingly likely they would not have had the problem if they had used the strategies already described on this page.

I've ascended only a couple dozen times. I've done almost all roles but I'm missing a few. I've been attacked by all three simultaneously on two occasions. The first occasion I'd never seen demogorgon before and was walking backwards across the Orcus level and didn't know what to do. I died. The second time I fought Orcus by levelporting above him and coming down and he still managed to summon both (or Yeenoghu did, I'm not sure) because I was using Magicbane +2 and it didn't dish out enough damage to kill him quickly. I prevailed by managing to separate all three on different levels that time and taking them out one at a time.

Not sure if the hardfought statistics are truly applicable to all games or not, but it happened to me twice. Maybe that's a fluke, I have no idea, maybe I'm the unluckiest nethacker alive, but summoning by Orcus is very dangerous.

>It appears likely to Magicbymccauley only because they had been pointlessly trekking across Orcus's level.

1st time yes, 2nd time no. In any case, the question of trekking across the level (and the claim by Pinkbeast that EVERYONE knows not to do that) is still an open question. While the current wiki's content mentions doing it quickly and strategies to get to the upstairs, warnings not to trek across the level would be helpful to beginner players, which I think is one demographic that the wiki should be designed to help, yes?

Lastly, I'd like the editors to consider that the Orcus encounter is one of the most likely scenarios to encounter Demogorgon, and should be noted as such.

Pinkbeast also disputed that a wielded potion could fail to paralyze Orcus. I've personally had that fail, no clue as to why (luck, miss chance, orcus resists?), and if other editors can confirm that such an action can fail, the wiki should note that multiple potions are desirable.

Lastly Pinkbeast claims that the best way to help players with orcus is to keep the fact that you can wield a potion and smash it on him in the potion of paralysis wikipedia entry. I think this is misleading. The most common way people use potions offensively is by throwing them, so they won't think to check "How else could I use a potion of paralysis other than throwing, let me check that entry." He also mentioned that ring of free action in conjunction with this strategy shouldn't be on this page.

I've never heard of anyone using the potion of paralysis/ring of free action/wielding combination on anyone but Orcus. It was used on the wizard many iterations of nethack ago, but the potion doesn't work on him anymore (it was too good).

As such the potion/wield/ring strategy is associated with Orcus and I think it should be on the Orcus page. I don't see any harm in that, and I think it would help people more to have it there.

-magicbymccauley

I agree that Orcus is probably the most likely way to have Demogorgon appear in a typical game, and the page should say as much. However, I doubt that the Orcus-Yeenoghu-Demogorgon trifecta is common enough to warrant more than a passing sentence to support the advice that Orcus should be killed quickly. It does not need to go on at length about the others' status-inducing attacks and how awful that is for the player to deal with. This is a case where the reader can be expected to read those other pages if they doubt the assertion that it's a bad situation to find oneself in.
I don't think the page needs to warn players specifically against trekking back to the Orcus-town upstairs, because its current content says "It is desirable... to kill him before he can summon Demogorgon" and "If fighting him directly you need to get onto an upstairs" and then states that the most convenient upstairs is on the level beneath Orcus-town and ways to do that. At the very most, if the implication isn't clear enough, the page doesn't need to say any more than "Walking back across Orcus-town to the upstairs is not a good idea."
Regarding paralysis potions: Orcus is NOT the sole use for these. I can confirm, via both source diving and testing in wizard mode, that you can paralyze the Wizard with a potion. This was never removed for being too powerful. Furthermore, paralysis is useful on many other uniques, such as quest nemeses, other demon lords, and 3.6.1-era Vlad. They can even see some use on tough non-uniques like the titan on Medusa's level or minotaurs. As such, any strategy advice and considerations for using potions of paralysis should be centralized on that page, not added redundantly to the Orcus page. Actually, the Paralysis#Monster paralysis section is rather lacking because it doesn't describe where monster paralysis is useful...
I don't want to have to start protecting pages because of edit warring. For this and other pages, if anyone is thinking of making a major change to a page's content, please outline what you would like to do on its talk page first and wait a few days for feedback rather than sparking an edit war by doing the heavy revisions immediately.
--Phol ende wodan (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
I honestly don't know if Orcus is the most likely way to see Demogorgon. I think Demogorgon - well, shouldn't be used as a cite, but in any case is only saying that the three named demons are mostly likely to do so per turn of engagement. The obvious counterfactor is that, depending on whether Orcus is dealt with quickly and RNG once Rodney is dead (and available WoDeath charges, etc), that Rodney may have very many more turns in order to do so. It's also the case that careless Chaotics with Stormbringer are much more likely to allow Yeenoghu the opportunity. (I agree that absent careless Chaotics, Orcus has better odds of doing so than Jubilex or Yeenoghu).
The games above suggest Orcus typically is the one who summons Demogorgon. Luxidream, who has a huge corpus of games played, thinks it is Yeenoghu. My own less extensive experience says it's Rodney.
Beyond that, as I write above, there's only about 5 ways to meet Demogorgon (3 named demons, Rodney, liches, yes technically nalfeshee). They all merit caution. I'm not sure singling one out based on what is at best a strong impression that it's most likely is helpful. (That said, if you put it in, I'll leave it be.) Pinkbeast (talk) 17:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Addendum; I could be wrong, but AFAICT, based on the source, _no_ monster is immune to potions of paralysis. Any monster hit with one is paralysed for 1-25 turns. The report above that it can fail is just wrong, but of course if you paralyse it for 1 turn, you haven't really gained any time. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:51, 22 September 2019 (UTC)


So, to address this ONE OF (and I changed my language to ONE OF) the most common ways to encounter Demogorgon is the ENCOUNTER with Orcus. Not Orcus summoning Demogorgon but the ENCOUNTER with Orcus. Orcus may summon Demogorgon, or Yeenoghu may, but it is this ENCOUNTER which is ONE OF the most likely scenarios (if not the most likely one) where you encounter Demogorgon. The point at which you are most likely to encounter him, or ONE of the most likely points to encounter him deserves mention in the wiki. Whether it's Yeenoghu or Orcus summoning Demogorgon isn't my point its that at this juncture of the game this is the window you will most likely see him and caution must be taken NOT to see him.

>"I doubt that the Orcus-Yeenoghu-Demogorgon trifecta is common enough to warrant more than a passing sentence to support the advice that Orcus should be killed quickly. It does not need to go on at length about the others' status->inducing attacks"

It's not "at length" I can do it in five words.

>: Regarding paralysis potions: Orcus is NOT the sole use for these. I can confirm, via both source diving and testing in wizard mode, that you can paralyze the Wizard with a potion.

Sorry if I was unclear. In days of yore (previous versions) you could paralyze the wizard with a potion of paralysis and leave the level. This would freeze the level state and with it the wizard on it and you could never encounter him again. That's no longer true. You CAN as you say get a potion to work on him, but it's not a viable strategy. If you leave the level the potion automatically ends and he just teleports to you. The real strategy against the wizard is bouncing wand of death rays, not potion of paralysis, which is impractical.

>say any more than "Walking back across Orcus-town to the upstairs is not a good idea."

That's fine! I have no problem with that. Since we agree I'll put it back in.

> (I agree that absent careless Chaotics, Orcus has better odds of doing so than Jubilex or Yeenoghu

Right and a careless chaotic accidentally hitting a player who summoned Yeenoghu would be a YASD, rather than something that you encounter unavoidably in the game, and you encounter Orcus (and his summoning potential) unavoidably in the game. Personally I'd never purposely summon Yeenoghu on purpose, too much possibility for YASD accidents. I've never encountered Yeenoghu outside of Orcus summoning him.

>I'm not sure singling one out based on what is at best a strong impression that it's most likely is helpful.

I think that is very helpful! It should be pointed out on the nalfshee article that they can summon demogorgon! It should be pointed out that Rodney can summon demogorgon. All these things should be pointed out! Why wouldn't we point super dangerous things out? I don't understand this.

Ok so whatever. We agree. I'll try and think up an edit with these.

>Any monster hit with one is paralysed for 1-25 turns. The report above that it can fail is just wrong, but of course if you paralyse it for 1 turn, you haven't really gained any time.

Got it. So actually if you paralyze him for 5 turns that's not going to be enough to kill him either. (maybe with dual wielding silver +7 double speeded you can dispatch him in 5 turns?) If you don't kill him, he teleports away and heals. You could also miss with the wielded potion. If the event is randomized then 1 out of five times a single potion of paralysis isn't enough to kill him.

Remember that you're not proficient in wielding potions so you would have a -3 miss chance. If you have bad luck for some reason (it happens sometimes even in the late game) you could miss with the potion and it wouldn't work either.

Because of these factors multiple potions of paralysis may be required and that should be noted in the strategy section.

Glad we agree on that too now.

Obviously the editors here, particularly you pinkbeast have a preference for austere writing (a single sentence fragment of five words is "going on at length"?_

In any case I'm glad now that you agree these things merit inclusion. I'll have to think about how to integrate them all using as few words as possible, but some concepts are irreducible and if you make them too short the writing gets convoluted and ambiguous.

-magibymccauley


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

By the way, Nao has 28 Kills with Yeenoghu, 14 kills by Demogorgon, and 5 Kills by Orcus.

I'm not sure that each one of these were caused by the trifecta, but I'm sure at least half were.

-magicbymccauley

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've merged the edits that we talked about. The article does warn about Orcus' potential to summon either Yeenoghu and does warn about summoning both of them at the same time.

Something's still not right about it though, the language is too passive.

I hate to resort to capslock but fighting all three is simply the worst and most difficult situation I've ever been in playing Nethack. They teleport at you and away and repeatedly stun and confuse you. This costs dozens of turns as you repeatedly have to remedy yourself and the turns it takes you to remedy give all three different time to heal. They are teleporting away from you and to you. It's absolutely hell on wheels, and I feel there needs to be a sign up around Orcus that says HE LOOKS EASY BUT HE CAN SUMMON FRIENDS THAT WILL MAKE YOU WISH YOU WERE NEVER BORN!

Not sure how to do that in the context of a wiki article though. Compared to the trifecta demon attack, Rodney and the riders are a joke.

-magicbymccauley

You mean that you have made edits that weren't actually agreed with, rationalising this by misreading replies to you in whatever fashion happens to suit you.
I do not agree with any of the most recent round of rubbish, some of which contains outright errors (as usual), and no reasonable person could have imagined that I did. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:04, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
As an interim measure I've tried to limit the damage. I've moved the mention of the trek to come to somewhere after the discussion of the correct upstairs to use. I didn't want to start moving potion of paralysis in here, but what we had implies you should hit him with a potion while he is paralysed, which is actively counterproductive.
I removed "Levelporting to a level above Orcus-town and proceeding back down to it is also a possibility to avoid other monsters and catch him alone". Monsters that follow you downstairs also follow you when levelporting, even assuming you happen to be carrying around a cursed scroll of teleportation or want to mess about confusing yourself when Orcus might return any moment. If there's no monsters around, dig down, using one of the hundred-odd wand charges Gehennom showers you with, a much cheaper resource. Bluntly, this "strategy" was born out of misconceptions about levelport and about stair-following behaviour which can be seen above. If you want to use a levelport on beating Orcus, clear Gehennom upwards with Asmodeus-mapping and pop out of Orcus's downstairs. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:22, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

What? Monsters can't follow you when you levelport. I've never seen that behavior. In any case, even if monsters DID follow you when you levelport, that's fine. They follow you and you kill them all, then you walk back down to fight Orcus, without having to fight the monsters AND Orcus at the same time. Levelporting above Orcus doesn't require a cursed scroll of teleport, a scroll of any beatitude will work. Being confused in front of Orcus isn't an issue because you do this after he teleports away. Scrolls of teleport I believe are the 2nd most common scroll in nethack, they are placed in closets all over the game.

You go into Orcus' lair. You attack him so he teleports away. Now you have a horde of monsters around you who will follow you down the downstairs. You go downwards without Orcus, and you then levelport. Using a scroll of teleport (common) of any beatitude (common) is fine. You're now not on a level with Orcus at all, so confusing yourself is not a danger. You confuse yourself with a forgotten spell and read a scroll of teleport. You're now teleported to a level above orcus, and you've separated him individually from the horde (which is now on the downstairs below the Orcus town, while Orcus waits on the upstairs of a part of orcus town you've already cleared).

You now can fight orcus alone without any other monsters nearby, monsters who could have wands of create monster or scrolls of create monster which would make your fight with Orcus even more lengthy.

>I've moved the mention of the trek to come to somewhere after the discussion of the correct upstairs to use

Okay. It kinda makes sense to put it before, but I'm happy at least for it's inclusion.

>hat we had implies you should hit him with a potion while he is paralysed

That is a bizzare claim, I have no idea why there would be that implication, could you explain further?

You agreed, absent careless chaotics, that orcus is the most, or at least one of the most common ways to encounter Demogorgon.

You agreed, that it's possible to smash a potion of paralysis on Orcus, but that you might not be able to kill him with just one (because of a short duration). This confirms my claim that I've smashed a potion on Orcus but needed another. Thus people should know you might require multiples for this strategy.

You agreed that we should mention not to walk back across the level for clarity.

Those are things you agreed with.

-magicbymccauley

I see what you're saying about multiple potions overlapping now. That wasn't my edit sir. That was Phol

He wrote:

> multiple potions may be needed to knock him out for enough time.

So this edit may be misunderstood by the reader, they may think that you can hit him with several potions sequentially and add to duration, but that doesn't work.

The passive way and austere way in which you've edited this doesn't really explain things.

>Another option is to use potions of paralysis (along with free action); the paralysis lasts 1-25 turns and cannot be applied to an already-paralysed monster.

The reader will have no idea why you're listing the duration of the potion. To you in your mind, it's obvious because of our discussion, but that won't be obvious to a reader, a beginner, or a "this is my first ascencion run" type person. Thus:

"Since the paralysis only lasts for 1-25 turns, multiples may be required. Since you can't paralyze an already paralyzed monster, apply the next after the first one wears off. "

Don't truncate this explanation. If you do, then people aren't going to understand the how and why.

>As an interim measure I've tried to limit the damage. I've moved the mention of the trek to come to somewhere after the discussion of the correct upstairs to use.

You haven't said "don't trek back to the upstairs". You've said "especially since the upstairs is far away". This, again, truncated and ambiguous statement doesn't help in the way "don't trek back to the upstairs" does. Your desire to use as few words as possible results in statements that are ambiguous and hard to follow.

The wiki needs to read "don't trek back to the upstairs", not give vague, ambiguous allusions to it. Write as if the reader doesn't know what you're talking about. That's what writing for a wiki is. Beginners, first ascenders and so forth are not going to make the connections that you've already made in your own mind. other players aren't going to know what you mean until they've fought Orcus many times. THEN they will get it, but the purpose of the wiki is to help them avoid those mistakes!

Verbose and explicit is better than truncated and vauge.

-magicbymccauley

Monsters can follow you when you branchport or levelport.
When fighting Orcus, it is much easier to go downstairs after attacking him rather than driving him to the upstair then levelporting up. This is easier and uses fewer resources. I don't think there's any controversy over this and the current version of the article makes this clear, and it's not productive for any editors involved to attempt to refute arguments for this method or the supposed vagueness of the current article. --Luxidream (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Level-porting doesn't necessarily use resources at all. Branchporting with the eye doesn't, and neither does levelporting with the Orb of fate. So the claim of levelporting always using up more resources is false. Scrolls of teleport are the 2nd most common scrolls in the game (I believe). In addition to being random treasure they are generated in closets all over the dungeon, moreover they are inferior to wand of teleport EXCEPT for level porting.

If monsters can follow you in levelport or branchport, that's not the point, nor is it a drawback. Monsters following you who are not Orcus is a GOOD thing. It divides them from orcus, meaning that you defeat these creatures without Orcus being there, and then subsequently walk back downwards, fighting Orcus without any monsters present. You might have no problem facing [Orcus+monsters] simultaneously, but monsters (especially humanoid ones, who are guaranteed to be in Orcus' lair) can do all sorts of things to you, such as throw potions or read scrolls of create monster, or Orcus might have summoned a naelfshee, which can also summon greater demons. This means that the method in the wiki is more dangerous, objectively. Fighting Orcus alone is always preferable to fighting him with other monsters present. While the method in the wiki is simpler, the levelport up option is objectively safer. I would add that fighting Orcus+monsters also becomes a much worse scenario if you are lacking something in the ascension kit (not having a great armor class due to being a monk, not having either reflection/magic resistance because you're going wishless, not having tons of hp, having only magicbane +2 which doesn't do sufficient damage, etc.)

>Or the supposed vagueness of the current article.

The editors of many of these articles do not write with the beginner, intermediate or first ascend-er type person looking at the article. Rather they write with themselves (people who have ascended several times) in mind. This means that the writing is done with someone with a nearly complete body of knowledge about the game. Ironically this defeats the purpose of the wiki, because the writing style is such that the people who can understand it don't need it, making the wiki itself pointless. Rather than being a guide to help people it becomes a secret handshake club for people in the know.

Don't feel bad about this, I've seen it happen all too often in other specialized fields: magic, martial arts, law, you name it. It doesn't seem vague to you because you're deep, deep in the culture. Another problem many of these subcultures have is that they are unable to imagine being a beginner again, and not having the vast knowledge they possess. This leads to bad teaching, bad writing.

However, the content of a wiki is supposed to be different. It's not supposed to be an arcane law book full of latin phrases that only the true initiate understands. It's supposed to be language that everyone from rank beginner to advanced specialists understands. You guys don't understand that yet. I get that. But I hope you will consider writing for the beginner and not the expert that already knows. Why write for the expert? They are the person who least needs the wiki!

In any case, I'm off to construct a legal motion right now. Trust me when I say this, arguing with the State Supreme court is easier than getting something included in your wiki.

-magicbymccauley

Adding this sentence when the block expires.

"A secondary method is to dig below Orcus, go up the upstairs and attack him until he teleports away. Proceed down one level, levelport upwards several levels, and go back down, so that you can fight him alone on an upstairs without interference from other monsters in his lair."

This 1. Does not necessarily use up resources (two artifacts can levelport) 2. The resources used would be minimal (one scroll of teleport of any beatitude while confused). Scroll of teleport is the 2nd most common scroll in the game after identify because it's additionally generated in closets all over the dungeon. 3. Attacking Orcus alone unmolested by any other monsters (who could read scrolls of create monster, zap wands, throw potions of paralysis, etc) is valuable for killing him quickly.

Unless someone can disprove 1-3 I will add the sentence when the block expires.

I suggest that page protection be extended when an editor states so clear an intention to make controversial changes without seeking consensus. Pinkbeast (talk) 02:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I suggest that the user "magicbymccauley" be blocked for an infinite duration due to not being able to adhere to the rules of a wiki. I'm not seeing a way to contact the wiki admins though, so if there is one, could someone kindly point me to it please? --Bluescreenofdeath (talk) 07:45, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Edit: thanks Paxed. --Bluescreenofdeath (talk) 09:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I disagree with this addition. It's more convoluted, resource-intensive, and dangerous (although that's largely irrelevant at this point in the game) than the strategy that's already included in the article (just pulling Orcus downstairs). It even allows Orcus more time to use his death wand charges. I could go into great detail here but it appears to have been rehashed many times on this page already. Furthermore this is a solution for covetous monsters, not just Orcus himself, so in my opinion it really should be on that page (if anywhere) to reduce duplicate information (which can be problemsome since nethack is still under active development and these details can change). Based on the author's past comments here, it seems to me that the only reason this addition is being pushed for is due to their misunderstanding that Orcus is neither covetous nor a follower (when he is in fact both), which *would* require alternate strategies such as the proposed addition -- but this is not the case and there are simpler methods for dealing with him efficiently. ——Tone (talk) 14:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
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