Talk:Unwinnable

I tweaked some of the language because I felt like being pedantic. As I understand it, it is not necessary to "complete the quest" at all to win the game--you just have to get the bell from the nemesis, and you don't even have to kill the nemesis to do that. Completing the quest involves getting the quest artifact and returning it to the quest leader, yes? None of which, if my understanding is correct, is necessary for getting the Bell and moving on down the dungeon. In fact, I'm just learning how to do a Barbarian now, and I might just leave that crappy Heart of Ahriman where it lies.--Ckbryant 00:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Importance

Is this page really useful? No game is generated unwinnable because, at the start, most of the game isn't even generated at all. As it only mentions one scenario, it could probably be merged into altar, alignment and/or Quest. 65.110.6.33 01:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I have obtained the Bell of Opening in a few games, but I always die before finding the Candelabrum or Book. From my perspective, the games (that I win not) were not unwinabble. An unwinnable game is apparently an alignment problem, so I would think that someone would merge unwinnable into alignment, if there was a merge. --Kernigh 03:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it also unwinnable if one wears a helm of opposite alignment before the quest (for the same reason)?

Taking off the helmet will restore your alignment back to what it started at. --MadDawg2552 00:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Unwinnability is not just an alignment issue. It is possible to find oneself invisible in a shop without the ability to cover up, teleport out, or defeat the shopkeeper. Or by tricking the guard into leaving you in a vault only to realize that you have no way to dig or teleport out. Or by burying a necessary item in a pit covered by a boulder. I think others exist, but those are the two that come to my mind. I think this page is an interesting and important addition to the Wiki and more should be done it not less. Roland St. Jude 23:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite sure that another guard will eventually enter the vault. Also, if you bury an item, you can dig it up later. The one about being invisible in a shop happened to me, once: I tried on a cloak and it was a cursed cloak of invisibility. It might be possible to close the door, kick it in, and either pay off the shopkeeper or run like hell; it depends on how fast the door gets repaired.--Ray Chason 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ticking off your quest leader

If you anger your quest leader, he'll kick you out of the quest and vanish the magic portal. (I did this recently, thinking that the quest leader would fully ID the Bell like he did with my quest artifact if I threw it at him: whoops!) I could theoretically have gotten the Eye and branchported back to pick up the Bell, since I was a neutral non-wizard, but if this isn't feasible, does it render the game unwinnable as well? Obviously, this is a "doctor it hurts when I do this/so stop doing that" situation, but then again so is accidentally converting yourself. - Tagmata 01:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. -Tjr 10:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Changing alignment back

Can't you do the altar thing a second time to get back to your original alignment? Or does that still not make it possible to go on the quest?

Nnnnnnnope. Thou hast betrayed me. Thou art naughty in My sight. Depart from me, thou vile apostate.--Your God. (OK, it was really Ray Chason 03:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC).)

SLASH'EM

So I just tried this out in wizard mode. You don't actually need the alignment keys to get the Candelabrum; if you don't have them, you can still wake up Vlad with a mind flayer's psychic blast, and when he teleports to meet you he will have the Candelabrum. You don't need an alignment key to open the door next to the down staircase, so he'll have space to meet you. Given that this article doesn't mention a lot of other situations that make the game seemingly impossible to win but in fact have obscure/difficult solutions, such losing the Amulet in water or lava, having one of the invocation items stolen, etc, I'm thinking it might be better to just remove that section altogether if nobody objects. For now I've just rewritten it, but do people think it should be removed? -Ion frigate 02:53, May 10, 2010 (UTC)