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Welcome! Use this page to discuss general topics with WikiHack members. If you want to discuss a topic that is specifically about NetHack, please consdier discussing it at Wikihack:Ask an expert.

Another way to contact Wikihack is to send mail to our mailing list, or leave comments on the talk pages of individual users.

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Cultural references

Is there any kind list (like in en-wiki [1]) or something else here for cultural references in NetHack? I haven't found one myself, and it would really help me with the Finnish counterpart in Wikipedia.

[2] - Wikiproject NetHack in Finnish Wikipedia

[3] - My usersite in Finnish Wikipedia

No, I don't think we have an equivalent list. But just browse the articles, they've got links to single Wikipedia articles for more background of their topics. --ZeroOne 23:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for information.

I just wanted to mention that the closest list we have on Wikihack right now is in the article for hallucinatory monster, which lists all the monsters you will see if you're hallucinating (and often these monsters are direct references to pop culture). NetHack encyclopedia should really mention some of the cultural references (or at least the literature the encyclopedia quotes from). I've added the link you provided into the Wikihack entry for the in-game encyclopedia. Thank you. :) —Shijun 20:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

NetHack sources on wikihack and Special:Random

IMO, Special:Random is not very useful for most users, because there's so many source code articles, and those simply aren't interesting for the majority of people.

I talked with some admins on the #wikia irc channel, and asked if there's a way to prevent the random page-link from showing the source code articles. Answer: move the pages to another namespace. The end result was that there's now a new namespace on wikia: Source

I suggest we move all the source code to the Source -namespace. --Paxed 17:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

There are, of course, a lot of source code pages. Your idea is a good one, but we should get a bot to do the moves, to complete the task in a reasonable time and avoid flooding the Recent Changes list. --Ray Chason 22:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I made a bot-readable list of source code articles to help give this idea some impetus :-) [4] It doesn't include everything from Category:Source code, just those matching /.*\.[ch]$/ (which I think is what we want?) Let me know on User talk:GreyKnight if you want something different. --User:GreyKnight(as anon) (PS: will be back on IRC sometime soon, see y'all there!)

---

Then the problem was to find someone with a bot that would move the pages. I discussed this with Paxed in the #nethack channel. I managed to configure a pywikipediabot to use User:Kernigh bot. I tested the bot by moving User:Kernigh/sandbox to User:Kernigh/sandcastle. Then Paxed converted GreyKnight's list into a shell script of python movepages.py -from:"x" -to:"y"; sleep 30 commands [5]. Before I run these commands, I need Wikia staff to give a bot flag to User:Kernigh bot to hide the huge number of moves from recent changes.

I now propose that User:Kernigh bot receive a bot flag, run the commands, thus moving the source code pages into the Source: namespace. Is this okay, or does someone not want this to happen? --Kernigh 21:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Now when I want to learn about something random in NetHack, all I have to do is hit alt-shift-x :) Fredil Yupigo 21:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm obviously all for this. --Paxed 07:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

So when is this mass move going to happen? Fredil Yupigo 01:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

As soon as someone with a bot-flagged username runs the script through a bot... Kernigh, probably. --paxed 08:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I requested the bot flag (through Special:Contact, with a reference to this section of the community portal) and received the bot flag. A few hours ago, User:Kernigh bot began to move pages. The bot sleeps 30 seconds between moves. So far, the bot seems to work correctly. --Kernigh 00:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

There's also slashem sources on wikihack, those should be moved too... here's a S'em 0.0.7E7F2 move script: [6] --paxed 15:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Paxed, your script has extra lines between the .h and .c moves. --Kernigh 16:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. --paxed 16:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I will have User:Kernigh bot run the script, probably at Friday 7 March. --Kernigh 15:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Monsters which are also starting races

My concern is that these are handled inconsistently. Most notably the standard dwarf (monster) h is missing altogether. I am hoping someone responsible can decide upon a suitable convention and apply it across Wikihack.

The dwarf (monster) todo page I created provides the relevant links. I apologise for the fact I couldn't fix it myself.--PeterGFin 14:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I've taken a look at this. Basically, all starting races have deeply ambiguous meanings, embracing all of the following:

• A race (obviously)
• A class (or part class) of monsters
• A monster attribute (M2_HUMAN etc.) used to determine cannibalism and own-race sacrifice
• A monster, sometimes used mainly for corpses, sometimes not.

The meaning required is determined by context, and often assumed implicitly, although this can be misleading; for example, does the phrase "human or elf" include Kops? The answer is, it depends on whether you are looking at the monster class, or the monster attributes. So @ ignore all Elbereth - they are human or elf, Kops only respect Elbereth when you stand on it - they have the human monster attribute. But "human or elf", meaning @ is usually linked as "[[human]] or [[elf]]", and none of the meanings at either page encapsulated what @ is (until I recently changed "Human", but you're still out of luck at "Elf".)

In my opinion, this means that human, elf, dwarf, gnome and orc should all be disambiguation pages delineating these various meanings and pointing enquirers in the right direction. In addition, we need a proper page for each monster class - that is, monsters who share the same symbol. Internally, NetHack uses this symbol to determine behaviour in certain cases. Classes such as human or elf, wraith and orc (includes goblin and hobgoblin) currently have no such page. All these example classes are used internally to determine game behaviour at some point.

Human comes closest currently to how I see things should be handled, although a page for @ human or elf does not currently exist (@ is essentially a disambiguation page).

--Rogerb-on-NAO 22:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with MR

For the MR topic, it records only the MR of the player and not of the monster. I have no idea what base MR does for monster (well, some ideas, but not enough). Someone ought to add something about that. RegalStar 18:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw this too and added Magic resistance (monster), and put it in Template:Otheruses at the top of Magic resistance recently. Hope it's useful.

--Rogerb-on-NAO 15:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Modifying NetHack

Can someone make a small guide? There's only one guide I can find, http://failsure.net:8085/root/usr/src/pub/games/nethack/vms/vmsbuild.com , but it doesn't tell you how make a new class. Also, I need to know how to use makedefs. I try to run it, but it flashes for a second saying it has invalid arguments (0). It doesn't even say how to use it. (FYI, my source and tools are installed in C:\nh343\ and C:\MinGW\)

By-the-way, here's the code I'm using:

Roles.c, under the bit about ranger:

/* START: BETA: Detective */
{	{"Detective", 0}, {
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0},
	{"Detective", 0} },
	"God", "God", "God", /* God */
	"Det", "someplace 1", "someplace 2",
	PM_RANGER, NON_PM, PM_BOMB_DOG,
	PM_ORION, PM_HUNTER, PM_SCORPIUS,
	PM_FOREST_CENTAUR, PM_SCORPION, S_CENTAUR, S_SPIDER,
	ART_LONGBOW_OF_DIANA,
	MH_HUMAN|MH_ELF|MH_GNOME|MH_ORC | ROLE_MALE|ROLE_FEMALE |
	  ROLE_NEUTRAL|ROLE_CHAOTIC,
	/* Str Int Wis Dex Con Cha */
	{  13, 13, 13,  9, 13,  7 },
	{  30, 10, 10, 20, 20, 10 },
	/* Init   Lower  Higher */
	{ 13, 0,  0, 6,  1, 0 },	/* Hit points */
	{  1, 0,  0, 1,  0, 1 },12,	/* Energy */
	10, 9, 2, 1, 10, A_INT, SPE_INVISIBILITY,   -4
},
/* END: BETA: Detective */

Roles.c, above the knight and samurai's hello thing:

	case PM_DETECTIVE:
	    return ("Here's the thing");        /* -- A. Monk */

Monst.c, under the large dog code:

/* START: BETA: BOMB DOG */
    MON("bomb dog", S_DOG,
	LVL(6, 15, 4, 0, 0), (G_GENO|1),
	A(ATTK(AT_BITE, AD_PHYS, 2, 4),
	  NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK),
	SIZ(800, 250, 0, MS_BARK, MZ_MEDIUM), 0, 0,
	M1_ANIMAL|M1_NOHANDS|M1_CARNIVORE,
	M2_STRONG|M2_DOMESTIC, M3_INFRAVISIBLE, HI_DOMESTIC),
/* END: BETA: BOMB DOG */

Monst.c, under the ranger code:

/* END: BETA: Detective */
    MON("detective", S_HUMAN,
	LVL(10, 12, 10, 2, -3), G_NOGEN,
	A(ATTK(AT_WEAP, AD_PHYS, 1, 4),
	  NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK),
	SIZ(WT_HUMAN, 400, 0, MS_HUMANOID, MZ_HUMAN), 0, 0,
	M1_HUMANOID|M1_OMNIVORE,
	M2_NOPOLY|M2_HUMAN|M2_STRONG|M2_COLLECT, M3_INFRAVISIBLE,
	HI_DOMESTIC),
/* END: BETA: Detective */

How would I make it so a class has a revolver (the archilogiest had one, or am I just thinking that Indy had one, so Archy must have one? XD) and wipes (which I'd have to program in myself).

Also, are there any really interesting points in the code? Like, I'd like to keep the game from deleting your save when you die.

TBF02 06:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I've played as Archeologist a few times, and to my knowledge there is no revolver, but there is a bull whip. if you dont want the save deleted, copy it to a different folder before reopening it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by NerdLord (talk • contribs)

If you want firearms, then SLASH'EM is for you. Be aware that "SLASH'EM wants you dead." And please don't come claiming an ascension if you've save scummed.--Ray Chason 22:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

A revolver and wipes couldn't be too hard to hack. Just give your detective a modified wand of magic missile and towel.

Weapon damages and min-max values, use template?

I saw someone added the minimum and maximum damages that Vorpal Blade and Battle-axe could do to their artifact/weapon template. I decided to write a template that could calculate those automagically given the d notation: See User:Paxed/Template:dice. Opinions, do we want to use it? (I'm obviously all for it) --paxed 15:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

paxed, that's a really cool template! I would love to see that used in the various monster infoboxes. I think this should be an official Wikihack template! :) —Shijun 01:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Monster (Pet) equipment - info box template?

I'm new to contributing: I'm not sure exactly how the info punched into the monster box on the right comes out the way it does. Take the entry for Djinni: the box at the right has an "other attributes" section that lists in bullet points that a Djinni has a head, arms, and a torso, that it can pick up weapons, etc., but in the edit section it just has some values set.

What I'd like to see is very specific information about exactly what equipment a monster can equip, especially after it has been tamed. For example, I had a pet Djinni, and it could wear a shield and gloves as well, and I believe it was equipping a cloak, but it wouldn't take any armor. I would have thought something that can wear a cloak could wear body armor. Without a wand of probing, I couldn't tell if it had something cursed on or if it simply couldn't equip it.

It'd be nice to see some consistent section on what equipment a monster will use as a pet, something like:

Centaur Can equip: Weapon Shield Helmet Gloves Amulet of Lifesaving Can use: Unicorn Horn Potion of Gain Level

Would it be possible to have the exact information on what a pet can equip converted from those values entered in the template - are these values/flags consistent, do they apply across the board? Or does every monster have it's own equipment rules?

If the latter is true, and it would be too complicated to work into the template, can anyone point to the best resource where I can find specifics on what a pet will wear and use? I'm thinking about adding an "As a Pet" section at the bottom of monster articles as I fool around with Polymorph traps. Floatingeye 04:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The monster template is at Template:Monster. But the thing you're looking at is actually an inner template, Template:Attributes. The things in that template are lifted straight from the source code. Source:Monflag.h contains all the flags. Take a look at the djinni: Monst.c#line2782. The flag "humanoid" says that your djinni has all the usual human bits, so it is a mystery why he wouldn't wear armor.

Templates are tricky, so if you want to improve them, I suggest trying to talk to Shijun or Paxed, since they've worked on them recently. #nethack on IRC is probably a good way to find people.

-Mniot 05:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Floatingeye, I think your djinni couldn't wear the armor because it didn't take off the cloak first (you always need to take off the cloak first before you can wear armor; obviously the monster AI isn't advanced enough to figure this out).

And yes, I agree with Mniot... templates are tricky (and sometimes I have trouble coding them). There could definitely be more user-friendly documentation about templates though. ;)

—Shijun 01:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Theme change

What the heck happened to the theme? How do I get the old look back? -- Killian 15:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Kirkburn changed it. Did he talk with the sysops/whatever of wikihack about it first?! --paxed 16:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll use Special:Contact to complain about this, maybe others should do so too... --paxed 18:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

He didn't contact me at any rate. I could change it back, if there's a clear consensus for doing so. Anyway, if you're logged in, you'll see a small button marked MORE next to your name at the top right. Click that, and select "My preferences". (This link should also work.) Click the Skin tab on the resulting screen, and you can change the theme. The old look is "MonoBook" and you'll find it toward the bottom.--Ray Chason 18:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the default theme back to Slate. As the discussion should have been: is there anyone who would like to see us switch to Monaco? Eidolos 20:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted the offending setting altogether, so now the user's Skin setting will be respected whether or not s/he checks the "allow admins to override" setting. I've confirmed we're still back to MonoBook when not logged in. I've also set my own setting to Monaco Sapphire -- I rather like the new skin but the Slate theme strikes me as overly stark. Sapphire at least has similar colors to the MonoBook skin. I might try experimenting with CSS, to get a Monaco that looks reasonably close to MonoBook -- it has some features that I think are neat. Having a "Problem reports list" on my sidebar will make that feature a bit more useful.--Ray Chason 21:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Main Page#Monaco skin for more. Kirkburn (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ray, thank you for looking into it. Sapphire could be a better fit - I went for slate due to the relatively neutral tones. Remember users can choose their own skins, this would mainly be a change for what anonymous users see - monaco has a lot of improvements for "viewers" along with editors. Kirkburn (talk) 17:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Engraving and Elbereth

Almost the entire article Engraving is repeated almost verbatim in Elbereth.

The danger of this is that editors update only one page, and the info in both gets out of sync. This has happened in this case.

Clearly these should be merged; I would just go ahead with this, but I don't want to make major changes to a featured page without some discussion.

There are a few points of view I can think of here:

1. Although in principle you can engrave anything, in practice little else is ever engraved than Elbereth or 'x' when illiterate. (There is some argument for engraving other things when identifying wands that might be teleportation). Thus Engraving should be merged into Elbereth and Engraving become a redirect to Elbereth. This would leave the Elbereth page largely untouched.

2. Large sections of the Elbereth page are really about the detailed mechanics of Engraving. All these details belong there and should be moved. The Elbereth page can simply point there as necessary.

3. Engraving and Elbereth are important topics that deserve their own, unpolluted pages. However, strategy decisions during play are important. An Elbereth strategy page or section should be created that discusses the interactions and how they affect play.

No doubt there are other possible viewpoints/solutions that I haven't thought of.

Things are somewhat complicated by the fact that, although it is a featured article, Elbereth does not seem to follow the Style Guide particularly well; in particular, it merges fact and comment throughout.

Personally I favour option 3, separating the comment in the current Elbereth page into a strategy section.

What do others think?

--Rogerb-on-NAO 16:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Since it's been a month now with no responses I'll take it I should just go ahead and do whatever I think best. I'll do just that whenever I get round to it. --Rogerb-on-NAO 22:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation Template:for2

On Gender, I had need to disambiguate 3 links for the page itself and 2 redirects; neither Template:for nor Template:otheruses could do this. I created Template:For2 as a general purpose tool, after wikipedia:Template:for2 (documented at wikipedia:Wikipedia:Hatnotes#For (other topic)).

--Rogerb-on-NAO 23:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Long reply above

Just in case you missed it, I put in a sizeable reply to Monsters which are also starting races above.

--Rogerb-on-NAO 22:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Interhack

Shouldn't this wiki mention Interhack? The multiplayer nethack, I mean. I know the project got abandoned, but it still had a stable 1.0.5 release in 2001. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.121.141.24 (talk • contribs)

As it was a NetHack variant, I should think so. Now all we need is for someone to take it upon themselves to add it (looks at the anonymous OP) --Rogerb-on-NAO 19:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)